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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 61 of 478 (775116)
12-28-2015 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
12-28-2015 12:41 PM


Faith writes:

No, all religions are not man-made. Biblical religion is God-made.

Some. like yourself have decided that the Bible is inerrant and have built a religion around that. All religions are man made. As I said, all religions are built on understanding the true nature of a deity and what our response should be.

Faith writes:

Serving the creation is right, of course, but our service of God is to be primarily worshiping Him in spirit and in truth. He Himself is our "exceeding great reward" as He told Abraham.

But what does it mean to "worship" Him. Is worship making sure that we get to church on time every Sunday. Sure that's a good thing. But maybe it's more importantly about telling the young woman at the check-out counter that she has a pretty smile, or buying someone who is homeless a meal, or working to integrate a refugee family into the community, and then thanking God that we have been gifted in such a way that these acts of love are possible.

Faith writes:

What you call "fundamentalism" is nothing other than obeying God's word as He wrote it.

Then why don't you follow it. Do you ever shop on Sunday, or is it Saturday? Why don't you recommend the public execution for those who do? Why aren't you advocating that nuclear bombs or some other method of annihilation be used on Islamic nations?

Faith writes:

You with your works-righteousness have more in common with the Pharisees than fundamentalists do.

It isn't works righteousness. It is about the heart. Psalm 37 tells us that if we delight in the Lord He will give us the desires of our heart. I think that the psalmist got it exactly right. If we truly follow Jesus, (whether we know Him by name or not), our hearts will desire and find joy in the expressions of love that can be expressed in our lives multiple times a day. As Christians we should then always remember that we are only capable of that love because God loved us first and that we are to give thanks for it. Many people have been damaged due to abuse, genealogy or whatever, and find it difficult to understand love but deep down desire it even though their actions don't show it. Again, ultimately it is about the heart, or as Paul says, it is about the motives of our heart.

Faith writes:

You say the Bible was given to teach and change us but you obviously don't believe that since you only obey the parts that appeal to you.

In what we have that Jesus said in the Gospels we can see that He was very Jewish and constantly referred us back to the OT. At the same time in corrected the parts that were wrong. For example:
quote:
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

If I am picking out the parts that I agree with I guess I'm in good company.

If we want to understand Jesus we have to understand Him in His 1st century Jewish context. To understand that context we need the OT. To understand God's nature and His desires for us we need the words of Jesus as a lens to understand what is written in the OT. The epistles then are the first theologians working out just what it was that Jesus taught and to understand what God was doing in resurrecting Him.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 12:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 62 of 478 (775117)
12-28-2015 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by GDR
12-28-2015 11:25 AM


GDR writes:

I agree that there is no certainty within Christianity....

Forget certainty, there isn't even consistency. It's a hopeless mess where anything can be believed from the same words. It's obvious man-made bunkum that can can be seen directly from the text even before you get into the historicity of the thing.

But I note that both you and Faith failed to pick up the point that you both believe through prayer - talking to your god - that you have the correct interpretation. He's lying to at least one of you isn't he?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 11:25 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 2:08 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 65 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-28-2015 2:19 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 66 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 2:31 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 67 by kbertsche, posted 12-28-2015 2:35 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 478 (775118)
12-28-2015 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
12-28-2015 2:04 PM


Don't know what you mean about believing through prayer. Don't recognize that as related to why I believe the Bible is God's word.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 2:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 64 of 478 (775119)
12-28-2015 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Thugpreacha
12-28-2015 8:45 AM


Re: The Christmas Revolution
That's a very nice article, surprising to see it published in such a secular organ as the NYTimes. I couldn't get away with saying such things though I believe them, I mean that our contemporary western attitude toward the poor and suffering originated with Christ even though it has now been taken over by humanistic and secular institutions, so it's nice to see someone get that truth into secular print.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-28-2015 8:45 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 65 of 478 (775120)
12-28-2015 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
12-28-2015 2:04 PM


Untangling Communion
Tangle writes:

... the point that you both believe through prayer - talking to your god - that you have the correct interpretation. He's lying to at least one of you isn't he?

Assuming that it is true that we believe God cannot lie....two possible responses are:
1) All of society has choices to listen to various and competing worldviews. Some of us prefer selective dogma and philosophy.(or believe that God speaks to us through different media) Others of us are hell bent on evidence alone...which means we trust our educational development as a species.

2) God doesn't exist. Tangles logic is vindicated.

Of course I tend to lean towards #1.....

Tangle writes:

It's a hopeless mess where anything can be believed from the same words. It's obvious man-made bunkum that can can be seen directly from the text even before you get into the historicity of the thing.

But isnt that true of any topic of secular origin as well? Look at how you guys argued about the Muslim clothing, for example. I closed that sucker...too many personal attacks.

Heck...everything ever spoken is essentially manmade bunkum. The art of the debate and/or discussion is to attempt to present our interpretation of what is said and meant. Within Christianity, while there are many arguments, there are also many consensus view on the meaning of the Bible.

Of course, some argue that they and they alone have either divine revelation or common sense. As long as we argue passionately, defending the position and not attacking each other personally, all is well at the Forum.

Edited by Phat, : added


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 2:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(2)
Message 66 of 478 (775121)
12-28-2015 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
12-28-2015 2:04 PM


Tangle writes:

Forget certainty, there isn't even consistency. It's a hopeless mess where anything can be believed from the same words. It's obvious man-made bunkum that can can be seen directly from the text even before you get into the historicity of the thing.

First off it is a collection of 66 books with no doubt hundreds of authors involved. I think that there is consistency as it it a history of the Jewish understanding of God that we can see evolve from the tough vengeful god that is often depicted in the early part of the OT to the much more compassionate deity in Isaiah and the other later prophets until we get to the full revelation and embodiment of God's nature in the person of Jesus.

Tangle writes:

But I note that both you and Faith failed to pick up the point that you both believe through prayer - talking to your god - that you have the correct interpretation. He's lying to at least one of you isn't he?

Not really. I have no doubt that some of the things I believe are wrong. Yes, I pray but in the end I think that usually our prayers are answered by the heart knowledge that comes from God of what is the right thing that I am to do in my life. I suppose that God does give us understanding but that understanding is also quite obviously going to be impacted by our life experiences.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 2:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 67 of 478 (775122)
12-28-2015 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
12-28-2015 2:04 PM


Tangle writes:

Forget certainty, there isn't even consistency. It's a hopeless mess where anything can be believed from the same words. It's obvious man-made bunkum that can can be seen directly from the text even before you get into the historicity of the thing.

But I note that both you and Faith failed to pick up the point that you both believe through prayer - talking to your god - that you have the correct interpretation. He's lying to at least one of you isn't he?


GDR and Faith interpret Scripture very differently in some places. I am somewhere between the two of them. Each of us believes that our interpretation is correct, but we also recognize that we may be wrong.

But I suspect that all three of us agree on most of the basic, central teachings in Scripture:
The character and nature of God
Man's sin and need for salvation
God's provision of salvation through Jesus
These things are pretty clear in Scripture, and hard to misinterpret. (Though it is true that even these things can be twisted and misinterpreted by various cults.)

But the things which GDR and Faith are arguing about at the moment (OT law and genocide) are in a different category. These are secondary issues, on which there are a number of different interpretations in Christendom. It is true that these secondary issues are difficult to interpret and understand. But the central teachings of Scripture are not.

Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 2:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 68 of 478 (775124)
12-28-2015 2:53 PM


So in the space of half a dozen posts we have three different opinions from 3 different Christians.

And I'm supposed to accept that this is the word of god? He's got the worst marketing communications department that there's ever been if that's the case.

Word of god, pah!

And yet more sidestepping this prayer malarkey - you guys tell us that you talk to god so one imagines that he'd put you right if you were on the wrong track about what he meant by this 'word' stuff. And yet it seems he's content to let you believe what you like about it. Even though in at least one case, it seems likely it'll put you into hell.

The excuse is that it's human - well exactly!


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 3:01 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 70 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 3:19 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 69 of 478 (775125)
12-28-2015 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Tangle
12-28-2015 2:53 PM


Can hardly blame you for your reaction when three of us claim different views of scripture. I think it's pretty simple myself, just believe that the Bible is inspired by God and treat every bit of it as God's word. There will still be some passages that are difficult to understand but that's nothing compared to the problems you create by treating the Bible as any old man-made text. The problems come in when you pick and choose and both GDR and KB do that.

There was a conference this year focused on Bible inerrancy and I was just listening to some of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsK8HCoFaUk
Departing from this basic understanding is what causes all the confusion.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 2:53 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by kbertsche, posted 12-28-2015 4:43 PM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 70 of 478 (775126)
12-28-2015 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Tangle
12-28-2015 2:53 PM


Tangle writes:

So in the space of half a dozen posts we have three different opinions from 3 different Christians.
And I'm supposed to accept that this is the word of god? He's got the worst marketing communications department that there's ever been if that's the case.

Word of god, pah!

And yet more sidestepping this prayer malarkey - you guys tell us that you talk to god so one imagines that he'd put you right if you were on the wrong track about what he meant by this 'word' stuff. And yet it seems he's content to let you believe what you like about it. Even though in at least one case, it seems likely it'll put you into hell.

It's back to the same thing again. Yes, it is ambiguous - we don't have certainty. With people who have actually put thought into it, there isn't likely to be two Christians anywhere that will agree on everything.

If we had certainty then we would lose our ability to freely choose free of self interest.

It also of course holds true about prayer. It is clear that the nature of God as we see it perfectly embodied in Jesus is far more concerned about our heart for all of His creation than He is about our theology.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 2:53 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 3:35 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 71 of 478 (775128)
12-28-2015 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by GDR
12-28-2015 3:19 PM


GDR writes:


It's back to the same thing again. Yes, it is ambiguous - we don't have certainty. With people who have actually put thought into it, there isn't likely to be two Christians anywhere that will agree on everything.

If we had certainty then we would lose our ability to freely choose free of self interest.

It also of course holds true about prayer. It is clear that the nature of God as we see it perfectly embodied in Jesus is far more concerned about our heart for all of His creation than He is about

Doesn't all that sound like a massive invention and cop out to you? God sends his only son to the world and has him murdered to redeem our sins and show us the way into his kindom, but does it in such a way as to make it interpretable anywhichway? Then the believers pray to him and simply have what they already believe confirmed.

Doesn't that smell just a liitle like it might just be people deluding other people and themselves?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 3:19 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 4:28 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 72 of 478 (775130)
12-28-2015 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Tangle
12-28-2015 3:35 PM


Tangle writes:

Doesn't all that sound like a massive invention and cop out to you? God sends his only son to the world and has him murdered to redeem our sins and show us the way into his kindom, but does it in such a way as to make it interpretable anywhichway? Then the believers pray to him and simply have what they already believe confirmed.

God did not have Him murdered. It was people who murdered Him. It was God who resurrected Him.

The Christian message is that ultimately there will be a re-creation of all things and that, for lack of a better term, the resurrected Jesus is the prototype of the life in a resurrected world. In Christian parlance Jesus is the new Adam for this re-created world.

As a theist it makes sense to me that this isn't all there is and frankly as far as I'm concerned is does all fit. I actually relate to this quote of CS Lewis.

quote:
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
Now I know that this doesn't resonate with you but it does for me.

Tangle writes:

Doesn't that smell just a liitle like it might just be people deluding other people and themselves?

There is the belief that a single cell and ultimately sentient moral life evolved without any intelligent or moral input from the endless chance combinations of mindless particles. That is without answering the question of why those particles existed in the first place.

Doesn't that smell just a little like it might just be people deluding other people and themselves?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 3:35 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 6:47 PM GDR has responded
 Message 76 by PaulK, posted 12-29-2015 2:59 AM GDR has responded

    
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 73 of 478 (775133)
12-28-2015 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
12-28-2015 3:01 PM


Faith writes:

The problems come in when you pick and choose and both GDR and KB do that.


Faith, please do not misrepresent me. Saying that I "pick and choose" is just as inaccurate as GDR saying that you (or I) "worship the Bible". My view of inspiration and inerrancy is essentially the same as your own. Where you and I differ is in our interpretation of a few passages, primarily the early chapters of Genesis.

Biblical interpretation is complicated if we want to do it carefully and accurately. Yes, some teachings (like the basic message of Scripture) are so simple and straightforward that even a child can understand them. But other secondary issues are so difficult that the best biblical scholars have differing opinions of the correct interpretations.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 3:01 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 12-31-2015 2:00 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 74 of 478 (775136)
12-28-2015 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by GDR
12-28-2015 4:28 PM


GDR writes:

There is the belief that a single cell and ultimately sentient moral life evolved without any intelligent or moral input from the endless chance combinations of mindless particles. That is without answering the question of why those particles existed in the first place.

These aren't alternatives GDR, you're just trying to create false choices. Also, as you know, none of these things that you incorrectly call 'beliefs' help you explain Christian beliefs.

God did not have Him murdered. It was people who murdered Him. It was God who resurrected Him.

Now that IS interesting. If god didn't know he was going to be murdered what kind of god was he and if he hadn't been murdered what kind of prophet would his son have been?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 4:28 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 2:12 AM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 75 of 478 (775155)
12-29-2015 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tangle
12-28-2015 6:47 PM


Tangle writes:

These aren't alternatives GDR, you're just trying to create false choices. Also, as you know, none of these things that you incorrectly call 'beliefs' help you explain Christian beliefs.

The only point I was making, (which had nothing to do with explaining Christian beliefs), is that atheistic beliefs require far more faith than do Christian beliefs IMHO.

Tangle writes:

Now that IS interesting. If god didn't know he was going to be murdered what kind of god was he and if he hadn't been murdered what kind of prophet would his son have been?

See my post #37 in this thread. I have already covered that.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 6:47 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2015 3:41 AM GDR has responded
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2015 1:05 PM GDR has responded

    
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