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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 91 of 478 (775201)
12-29-2015 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by GDR
12-29-2015 8:51 PM


GDR writes:
If He had simply been crucified and that was the end of the story we would know nothing of Him today.
Quite aside from the context of this thread's debate, I just want to point out that this is hogwash.
Many people--spiritual teachers, philosophers, kings, slaves, poets, generals, artists, dramatists, religion founders, even fictional characters, courtesans and gods neither of us believe in--have managed to be remembered and have influence without the extra pizzazz of resurrection.
So curb your enthusiasm.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 8:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 9:19 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 92 of 478 (775202)
12-29-2015 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Tanypteryx
12-29-2015 1:32 PM


Tanypteryx writes:
Well, the hypotheses I am familiar with all have very simple chemistry initially that slowly gets more and more complex.
Fine but why does that simple chemistry exist in the first place?
Tanypteryx writes:
That sounds like an easy answer, but it isn't good enough. There are no details of how or why. There is no evidence, no signature, no way to even study it.
What is the deal with always referring to "mindless particles?" Do you have any example of particles with minds? Or any reason to think particles could have minds?
Well, I would contend that our all life and particularly the fact that we are sentient is evidence. We may come to different conclusions but I obviously believe that that sways the argument towards there be a pre-existing intelligence.
Of course particles don't have minds. That is the point. All that we are aware of is made up of particles that we both agree are mindless and yet here we are, a collection of mindless particles and yet we have minds.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-29-2015 1:32 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-30-2015 12:33 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 93 of 478 (775203)
12-29-2015 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Omnivorous
12-29-2015 9:00 PM


Omni writes:
Quite aside from the context of this thread's debate, I just want to point out that this is hogwash.
Many people--spiritual teachers, philosophers, kings, slaves, poets, generals, artists, dramatists, religion founders, even fictional characters, courtesans and gods neither of us believe in--have managed to be remembered and have influence without the extra pizzazz of resurrection.
So curb your enthusiasm.
Jesus contended that he was the Jewish messiah. As I understand it we know of about 15 other messianic movements of that era and with some of them having accomplished significant, although brief, military victories. Who, other than the odd historian knows about them today, let alone worship them?
We don't have anything he wrote, his followers were at the bottom of the social order in a small oppressed nation and had no influence in his life time outside of the Jewish world which had rejected Him.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Omnivorous, posted 12-29-2015 9:00 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Omnivorous, posted 12-30-2015 4:31 PM GDR has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 94 of 478 (775204)
12-29-2015 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by GDR
12-29-2015 8:06 PM


GDR writes:
I listened to that and I also own and have read his book "I Love Jesus and I Accept Evolution". The only question that i would have with him is on his Biblical view. What does he mean when he calls the Bible inspired by God. I have probably differ with him somewhat on that as yes I believe that God does communicate wisdom to people, but in the case of the Bible, I would agree that God inspired writers to write but which in my view does not mean that they always got it correct.
Denis' view of inspiration is quite conservative. He holds to the verbal, plenary inspiration of Scripture. His view is that the writers DID get it all correct. But he distinguishes between the timeless "message" of Scripture and the temporal and cultural "incidental" details which were used to communicate the message to the original audience.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 8:06 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 5:36 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 95 of 478 (775206)
12-30-2015 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by GDR
12-29-2015 9:07 PM


Tanypteryx writes:
Well, the hypotheses I am familiar with all have very simple chemistry initially that slowly gets more and more complex.
Fine but why does that simple chemistry exist in the first place?
What if Elenor Roosevelt had wings? I take it you really don't expect an answer from me.
Tanypteryx writes:
That sounds like an easy answer, but it isn't good enough. There are no details of how or why. There is no evidence, no signature, no way to even study it.
What is the deal with always referring to "mindless particles?" Do you have any example of particles with minds? Or any reason to think particles could have minds?
Well, I would contend that our all life and particularly the fact that we are sentient is evidence. We may come to different conclusions but I obviously believe that that sways the argument towards there be a pre-existing intelligence.
You pretty much skewered any chance at rebuttal when you can declare that literally anything is evidence. I can see what you obviously believe but feel no pressure that could cause me to sway.
Of course particles don't have minds. That is the point. All that we are aware of is made up of particles that we both agree are mindless and yet here we are, a collection of mindless particles and yet we have minds.
No, that isn't the point. The point is that there is no reason we should in any context expect particles to have minds so it is ridiculous to keep referring to them as mindless.
They are just particles period, and we are made up more of electromagnetic fields between electrons than particles themselves.
I agree we are alive in this Universe, but that doesn't suggest an overmind to me. If such an entity exists it has left no trace that would convince everyone. There is no discernable difference between an overmind entity that leaves no trace and no overmind entity at all.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 9:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 5:56 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 96 of 478 (775207)
12-30-2015 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by GDR
12-29-2015 8:20 PM


quote:
OK so evolution occurs without any intervention. That still does not answer the question of why it exists or whether it is the result of a pre-existing intelligence or not.
Since evolution is the inevitable consequence of a population of imperfect replicators the only thing to be explained is the existence of said replicators. Once the population exists it will evolve and no pre-existing intelligence is required.
And of course if we wish to compare degrees of faith it cannot be done by a hostile and dishonest look at one point of view. Both points must be fairly examined. You propose a pre-existing intelligence, unlike anything known to exist and with even less explanation of why it should exist. Unless your only criteria is what you personally find easy to believe - which certainly cannot be applied to other people - then surely your position requires more faith to believe.
quote:
I have been simply attempting to defend my position. The only defence that I have seen from atheists is that is what they believe. We both have looked at the evidence and have come to very different conclusions.
No. I responded because you dishonestly attacked the atheist position. Indeed your only defence is that you find your views more plausible - a purely personal opinion. Attacking opposing views while not putting your own up for examination is no honest defence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 8:20 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 6:16 PM PaulK has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 97 of 478 (775208)
12-30-2015 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by GDR
12-29-2015 8:10 PM


GDR writes:
Again, if they call themselves atheistic then they must have considered it and then gotten on with their lives.
God is a very big deal in your life so you can't understand how for others it is not. For most people in northern Europe and particularly Scandanavia, belief in God is simply not a 'normal' thing. It's just not a consideration. If you asked them whether they believe in god they'd find it a weird thing - it's just not any part of their lives and never has been. If you imagined a world where god hadn't been invented, no-one would believe in God and the term atheist wouldn't make much sense even though it would describe that populations lack of belief. That's as close as I can get to it for you - it's simply an absense that is not substituted by a belief in something else. We don't have a word for a lack of belief in pixies and by not believing in pixies we don't believe in something else instead - it's the same idea.
It's a change that's happened over three or four generations. If you're not brought up in a religious atmosphere, it's not something that enters into your thoughts. Religions are learned and reinforcd by their surrounding society.
They'll have considered religion only because its unavoidable in everyday life, but will have given it no more than passing thought - a quirk of a minority, like vegitarianism.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 8:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 6:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 98 of 478 (775210)
12-30-2015 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by GDR
12-29-2015 8:51 PM


GDR writes:
I believe that God has created a world where .....
You keep telling me what you believe as though this is some kind of evidence or explanation or argument. You must know that it's not. And you don't seem to get the arguments being made because you find it impossible to step outside your beliefs to fully understand the argument. I'll try again.
God knew that Jesus would be murdered because he's all knowing. Jesus had to be resurrected to be special. So, in fact, it was all just a script. God sent Jesus to be murdered, he was murdered because that was in the script. There was no option for him not to be murdered because if he wasn't, there could be no resurrection and therefore no redemption for the human race which was god's intent.
ps I know all about Polkinhorne, and Lewis and etc etc. These people - like you - present their beliefs as evidence. They're not. Just because they're celebrities (even notable scientists, which I know you think should impress me, but does not) does not mean they have any special knowledge of god. They don't. They just make stuff up to fit like every other believer.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 8:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 5:49 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 116 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 6:51 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 99 of 478 (775212)
12-30-2015 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tangle
12-30-2015 3:35 AM


All that you have shown in your last two posts is that Jesus was foreknown to be part of the plan and that believers are a minority. And for a guy who claims not to give the ideas much thought, you seem to like hanging around (and Im glad you do! )

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 3:35 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 9:42 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 478 (775214)
12-30-2015 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 6:27 AM


What God Is Like
I have a question (actually several) for you, Greatest I AM---from what I understand, your Gnostic view espouses the idea that we all are manifestations of Gods presence on the earth. IIRC, you have said that we are the closest thing to god that there is...or something like that. Now...without resorting to any links or You Tube videos, I want you to answer the following questions for me to the best of your ability.
1) Who is God? Is God a character or merely an active presence sorta like "The Force" in Star Wars?
2) Do you pray and/or talk with God or do you see that idea as illogical?
3) What is it about Gnostic Christianity that appeals to you? Why even have a need for God? Why not simply worship logic, Reason, and Reality?
Edited by Phat, : spelling

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 6:27 AM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 101 of 478 (775221)
12-30-2015 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
12-30-2015 5:49 AM


Phat writes:
All that you have shown in your last two posts is that Jesus was foreknown to be part of the plan
Think it through Phat. If the murder of Jesus was inevitable and part of the plan, where is our free will?
Phat writes:
And for a guy who claims not to give the ideas much thought, you seem to like hanging around
I do give it thought, my point was that the majority of people that we call atheists - because they don't believe in god - don't give it much if any thought. They just don't believe in god. It's not a big or even interesting thing for them, it's like not believing in elves - just not a 'thing'.
(and Im glad you do! )
Masochist!

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 5:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 1:59 PM Tangle has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 102 of 478 (775227)
12-30-2015 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by GDR
12-27-2015 9:09 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
GDR
" It was the resurrection of Jesus by the Father that affirmed and vindicated the life and message of Jesus and it was God the Father, the Ancient if Days that enthroned Jesus."
-----------
Sure. Scriptures have Jesus himself saying that all is done through the Fathers power and not his own.
But Jesus did not think he was to die in any permanent way.
The messiah myth stated that the messiah would live and rule over the Jews. Not die and not return. That is why most Jews still wait for their messiah.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 12-27-2015 9:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 8:12 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 103 of 478 (775240)
12-30-2015 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Tangle
12-30-2015 9:42 AM


Foreknown and Determined
Tangle writes:
If the murder of Jesus was inevitable and part of the plan, where is our free will?
We freely chose the wrong path. The only argument against free will maintains that we MUST choose only one path and not our own. If I freely chose not to give gravity much thought nor consideration, I would STILL be stuck on the ground! As far as strict determinism, my only response is "so what"? If thats the way it is then I never have had free will. Not much I can do about it except try my best to live as I want while alive. Which brings up a question! Do I even get a choice in living as I want?
God knew that Jesus would be murdered because he's all knowing. Jesus had to be resurrected to be special. So, in fact, it was all just a script. God sent Jesus to be murdered, he was murdered because that was in the script. There was no option for him not to be murdered because if he wasn't, there could be no resurrection and therefore no redemption for the human race which was god's intent.
It gets even better!
I believe that Jesus was not plan B in response to Lucifers choice (though perhaps foreknown) of becoming Satan. Jesus was Plan A before Lucifer even fell!
At worst, one could argue that we are toy soldiers in the playpen of a Deity. I'm glad that we are not plastic, however and that we get to rant on social media forums! Such Fun!
it's like not believing in elves -...
Most of the elves I know are in therapy for post traumatic fantasy syndrome...a symptom that appears after the holidaze. In essence they have joined a self elf group!
Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 9:42 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 12-30-2015 2:28 PM Phat has replied
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 2:42 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 104 of 478 (775245)
12-30-2015 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
12-30-2015 1:59 PM


Re: Foreknown and Determined
Phat writes:
We freely chose the wrong path.
If there is a "wrong" path, it isn't a free choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 1:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 2:32 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 105 of 478 (775247)
12-30-2015 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
12-30-2015 2:28 PM


Re: Foreknown and Determined
If there is a "wrong" path, it isn't a free choice.
Perhaps we humans are not yet wise enough to be given such power.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 12-30-2015 2:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 12-30-2015 2:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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