Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.

Quite aside from the context of this thread's debate, I just want to point out that this is hogwash.Many people--spiritual teachers, philosophers, kings, slaves, poets, generals, artists, dramatists, religion founders, even fictional characters, courtesans and gods neither of us believe in--have managed to be remembered and have influence without the extra pizzazz of resurrection.So curb your enthusiasm.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, GDR. You eloquently describe Jesus' obscurity.As you know, I don't believe Jesus was resurrected. It is difficult to experience frank incredulity and maintain a respectful tone, and I don't always succeed. I hope to do better.Many of the folks I alluded to--"spiritual teachers, philosophers, kings, slaves, poets, generals, artists, dramatists"--are remembered, simply, because of their remarkable lives and achievements. Most of them claimed no miracles.Jesus' personal history prior to crucifixion was already replete with signs and wonders, prophecies and miracles. He healed the sick and raised the dead; he cast out demons and fed a multitude with a few basketsful. He did these things much more publicly than he rose. He gathered a following passionate enough to alarm both the Jewish and the Roman authorities.Leaders of the 15 other messianic movements you refer to may have matched Jesus' way with the authorities, but I assume you don't think they performed the other supernatural acts I listed for Jesus. I suppose, if you believe they did, I can see why you think Jesus needed resurrection to close the deal with his disciples. But I don't think you believe that. Further, I'm sure you agree with me that the founders of other world religions did not rise from the dead, let alone perform many other miracles--yet they have millions of followers after a very long time indeed.I initially responded to your post on this not because I reject your beliefs about Jesus' resurrection, but because I cannot believe that anyone capable of the pre-crucifixion miracles, performed before many witnesses, would be forgotten unless he rose from the dead to a few.I don't see why your faith or theology would require you to believe in the necessity of resurrection to the survival of the Christian religion. It seems a superfluous limitation on both the power of God and the potency of Jesus' life and teaching. Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.

Yet the founding of other faiths and their persistence over time do support it.Perhaps, if Yahweh hardened Pharoah's heart, he also made Jesus' Jewish disciples remarkably fickle, despite the miracles they witnessed.If I shared your faith in the Gospels, no doubt I would agree with your position.Have a great New Year, GDR. It's always a pleasure to disagree at length with a calm Christian.

It's good to be reminded of my childhood moral outrage at the slaughter of the innocents in the Bible. Those stories made me question my church, and the inadequate answers made me leave. My long ago revulsion still makes me question the moral sanity of Biblical Inerrantists.

My intuitive favorite explanation suggests it was a teaching tale, like Aesop's Fables, and so popular the Editor put it in. Scary tales for kids... Every doctrine of inerrancy leads to the same chamber of horrors no matter where you start, Kansas evangelical or Afghan Taliban. Those were the days, justice was hard and clean; us and them were clear, there was blood without quibble. Now all humanity is degenerate drek, especially Afghanistan from Kansas, and vice versa.And once you accept those grim prospects, who wouldn't want the world to end? Isn't that the hardest and cleanest justice of all? So the human arc is to be from bloody horror to fervent Apocalypse...Personally, I'd like to think the world will get better, like things already have for communities of people who refuse to take bloody tribal myths as gospel.