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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satanís test of manís morality.
ringo
Member
Posts: 16634
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 106 of 478 (775249)
12-30-2015 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Thugpreacha
12-30-2015 2:32 PM


Re: Foreknown and Determined
Phat writes:

Perhaps we humans are not yet wise enough to be given such power.


Perhaps God wasn't wise in forcing such power on us.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-30-2015 2:32 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6888
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 107 of 478 (775251)
12-30-2015 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Thugpreacha
12-30-2015 1:59 PM


Re: Foreknown and Determined
Phat writes:

We freely chose the wrong path.

We're talking about murdering Jesus. The wrong 'choice' in that scenario would be to have NOT murdered him.

I'm claiming that those at the time were acting on rails - they could do nothing else because if they did, the human race would not have been redeemed and god's plan would have failed. It's because god's plan could not fail, that there was no free choice involved.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-30-2015 1:59 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-30-2015 3:04 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 108 of 478 (775256)
12-30-2015 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Tangle
12-30-2015 2:42 PM


Re: Foreknown and Determined
I'm claiming that those at the time were acting on rails - they could do nothing else because if they did, the human race would not have been redeemed and god's plan would have failed. It's because god's plan could not fail, that there was no free choice involved.
Perhaps we had no choice to be fallen---unrighteous.(original sin defense) Assuming that there are two spirits:
1) The Holy Spirit,Creator of all seen and unseen
2) The rebellious spirit...allowed to exist by GOD yet not directly created by Him.

God created potentialized evil. Lucifer became Satan through actualizing evil.

God may well have written that script as well and Lucifer had no choice in the matter to become the evil one---

nor do we have any choice...it is all pre-determined. In which case I have no reason to try and convert atheists nor do any churches have any need to exist.

Its Gods play.

So now we have a fully predetermined universe.

Assuming we have no choice whether to serve (or acknowledge God) or not, does it matter to you personally what you do?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 2:42 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 5:26 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1133 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 109 of 478 (775264)
12-30-2015 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by GDR
12-29-2015 9:19 PM


GDR writes:

Jesus contended that he was the Jewish messiah. As I understand it we know of about 15 other messianic movements of that era and with some of them having accomplished significant, although brief, military victories. Who, other than the odd historian knows about them today, let alone worship them?

We don't have anything he wrote, his followers were at the bottom of the social order in a small oppressed nation and had no influence in his life time outside of the Jewish world which had rejected Him.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, GDR. You eloquently describe Jesus' obscurity.

As you know, I don't believe Jesus was resurrected. It is difficult to experience frank incredulity and maintain a respectful tone, and I don't always succeed. I hope to do better.

Many of the folks I alluded to--"spiritual teachers, philosophers, kings, slaves, poets, generals, artists, dramatists"--are remembered, simply, because of their remarkable lives and achievements. Most of them claimed no miracles.

Jesus' personal history prior to crucifixion was already replete with signs and wonders, prophecies and miracles. He healed the sick and raised the dead; he cast out demons and fed a multitude with a few basketsful. He did these things much more publicly than he rose. He gathered a following passionate enough to alarm both the Jewish and the Roman authorities.

Leaders of the 15 other messianic movements you refer to may have matched Jesus' way with the authorities, but I assume you don't think they performed the other supernatural acts I listed for Jesus. I suppose, if you believe they did, I can see why you think Jesus needed resurrection to close the deal with his disciples. But I don't think you believe that. Further, I'm sure you agree with me that the founders of other world religions did not rise from the dead, let alone perform many other miracles--yet they have millions of followers after a very long time indeed.

I initially responded to your post on this not because I reject your beliefs about Jesus' resurrection, but because I cannot believe that anyone capable of the pre-crucifixion miracles, performed before many witnesses, would be forgotten unless he rose from the dead to a few.

I don't see why your faith or theology would require you to believe in the necessity of resurrection to the survival of the Christian religion. It seems a superfluous limitation on both the power of God and the potency of Jesus' life and teaching.

Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 9:19 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by GDR, posted 12-31-2015 2:35 AM Omnivorous has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6888
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 110 of 478 (775270)
12-30-2015 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Thugpreacha
12-30-2015 3:04 PM


Re: Foreknown and Determined
Phat writes:


Perhaps we had no choice to be fallen


You mean we're just products of evolution? Who would have thought it? :-)

1) The Holy Spirit,Creator of all seen and unseen
2) The rebellious spirit...allowed to exist by GOD yet not directly created by Him.
God created potentialized evil. Lucifer became Satan through actualizing evil.

God may well have written that script as well and Lucifer had no choice in the matter to become the evil one---

I just can't take this fairy story twaddle seriously - sorry, it's just too childish.

nor do we have any choice...it is all pre-determined. In which case I have no reason to try and convert atheists nor do any churches have any need to exist.

Well no, those aren't the alternatives. And no, it's not all pre-determined. But there's no need to waste your breath on atheists or in churches - just get on with your life being a decent person.

Assuming we have no choice whether to serve (or acknowledge God) or not, does it matter to you personally what you do?

We have choice, it's just more restricted than we tend to think. The god stuff is totally irrelevant. Of course it matters what I do, why wouldn't it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-30-2015 3:04 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 111 of 478 (775272)
12-30-2015 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by kbertsche
12-29-2015 11:07 PM


kbertsche writes:


Denis' view of inspiration is quite conservative. He holds to the verbal, plenary inspiration of Scripture. His view is that the writers DID get it all correct. But he distinguishes between the timeless "message" of Scripture and the temporal and cultural "incidental" details which were used to communicate the message to the original audience.


That is what I remember from his book. I still don't understand how people can understand that the God, whose word and wisdom is incarnate Jesus, with his message of love your enemy, could also having commended genocide and public stoning even for minor offences. The two positions can't be harmonized.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by kbertsche, posted 12-29-2015 11:07 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 112 of 478 (775277)
12-30-2015 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tanypteryx
12-30-2015 12:33 AM


Tanypteryx writes:

What if Elenor Roosevelt had wings? I take it you really don't expect an answer from me.


Sure, because there is no answer that can be proven to be correct. We just form our beliefs based on what we can know, with the point being that this universe as we perceive exists, and either we are here because of an intelligence outside of our perceivable universe or we are here by mindless natural processes.

Tanypteryx writes:

No, that isn't the point. The point is that there is no reason we should in any context expect particles to have minds so it is ridiculous to keep referring to them as mindless.

They are just particles period, and we are made up more of electromagnetic fields between electrons than particles themselves.

Of course, but I just want to make it clear that when I use that expression I am emphasizing that what I am referring to is the belief that all of the processes leading to the world we perceive today were mindless.

If the theistic position is correct then evolution, even if it all happens naturally without mindful intervention, is still at its root the result of a mindful entity.

Tanypteryx writes:

I agree we are alive in this Universe, but that doesn't suggest an overmind to me. If such an entity exists it has left no trace that would convince everyone. There is no discernable difference between an overmind entity that leaves no trace and no overmind entity at all.

My point is still that we are alive in this universe which prompts the question of why is that so. All of us would consider our computers or any other human product as evidence that somebody with intelligence assembled it. It is my belief that we can look upon our own bodies the same way. Yes it is belief but I don't accept that it is an irrational belief.

Also of course as a Christian I contend that God left more than a "trace" in Jesus which didn't convince everyone but has convinced many.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-30-2015 12:33 AM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-30-2015 6:34 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 113 of 478 (775278)
12-30-2015 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by PaulK
12-30-2015 2:58 AM


PaulK writes:

Since evolution is the inevitable consequence of a population of imperfect replicators the only thing to be explained is the existence of said replicators. Once the population exists it will evolve and no pre-existing intelligence is required.

I am very careful not to discuss evolution in any detail as a am highly unqualified to do so. However, I understand that the process that evolutionary changes have been caused by random mutations. If I have this right we would be unable to perceive whether any specific mutation was externally interfered with or not, which is not to say that it is required.

From a naturalist POV we would also require some process to bring about the existence of the replicators, and a process for that process and so on.

PaulK writes:

No. I responded because you dishonestly attacked the atheist position. Indeed your only defence is that you find your views more plausible - a purely personal opinion. Attacking opposing views while not putting your own up for examination is no honest defence.

I have put up my own position numerous times and if I have to keep repeating it in every thread I'll run out of time to participate. A while back I started a thread on my beliefs which sounds egotistical but I did it in an attempt to not have to keep repeating things over and over for which I didn't have the time.
Here is a link to that thread. My Beliefs- GDR Good luck as it wound up with 1324 posts.

But yes, I do contend that my views are more plausible, and yes, I agree that is simply my belief, and that others, like yourself, disagree and have different beliefs.

The good news for me if that if I'm right I'll be able to say I told you so in the next life, but if you're right you just won't have that opportunity.

Cheers and have a great 2016.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 12-30-2015 2:58 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by PaulK, posted 12-31-2015 4:01 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 114 of 478 (775279)
12-30-2015 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Tangle
12-30-2015 3:14 AM


Tangle writes:

God is a very big deal in your life so you can't understand how for others it is not. For most people in northern Europe and particularly Scandanavia, belief in God is simply not a 'normal' thing. It's just not a consideration. If you asked them whether they believe in god they'd find it a weird thing - it's just not any part of their lives and never has been. If you imagined a world where god hadn't been invented, no-one would believe in God and the term atheist wouldn't make much sense even though it would describe that populations lack of belief. That's as close as I can get to it for you - it's simply an absense that is not substituted by a belief in something else. We don't have a word for a lack of belief in pixies and by not believing in pixies we don't believe in something else instead - it's the same idea.

I can understand as I wasn't always a Christian and I didn't think about it a lot. I would have considered my self a cultural Christian I suppose but if pressed I would have said I was agnostic.

I still don't buy your point about belief. It isn't a lack of belief in pixies, it is my belief that they don't exist. Presumably the atheistic belief is that God doesn't exist. If an individual hasn't considered the notion of god(s) then presumably they wouldn't call themselves atheistic. When someone says, "I am an atheist", they are making a considered statement that they have come to the conclusion or belief that there is no god(s).

You call yourself an atheist, (correct me if I'm wrong), because you have put thought into it and come to a specific conclusion. Both of us hold differing but thoughtful conclusions with, (I assume you would agree), the full knowledge that we could be wrong.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 3:14 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2015 4:04 AM GDR has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2231
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 115 of 478 (775280)
12-30-2015 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by GDR
12-30-2015 5:56 PM


OK, thanks for answering. We seem to be at such extremes in our views that there is no point in continuing, so carry on.

Happy New Year.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 5:56 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 116 of 478 (775281)
12-30-2015 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tangle
12-30-2015 3:35 AM


Tangle writes:

You keep telling me what you believe as though this is some kind of evidence or explanation or argument. You must know that it's not. And you don't seem to get the arguments being made because you find it impossible to step outside your beliefs to fully understand the argument. I'll try again.

I get that as quite honestly I feel the same way so I'll try again as well.

Tangle writes:

God knew that Jesus would be murdered because he's all knowing. So, in fact, it was all just a script. God sent Jesus to be murdered, he was murdered because that was in the script. There was no option for him not to be murdered because if he wasn't, there could be no resurrection and therefore no redemption for the human race which was god's intent.

That is not consistent with my belief. I believe that God has established a world where the future is unknown to both God and us. I would contend that either Jesus and God would have been able to predict the crucifixion, or murder if you like, based on the circumstances but that is not the same as knowing what would happen.

We only know what happened because Jesus was crucified, we don't know what would have happened if He hadn't been.

Tangle writes:

ps I know all about Polkinhorne, and Lewis and etc etc. These people - like you - present their beliefs as evidence. They're not. Just because they're celebrities (even notable scientists, which I know you think should impress me, but does not) does not mean they have any special knowledge of god. They don't. They just make stuff up to fit like every other believer.

Actually I didn't bring up Polkinghorne to impress. I brought him up to show that I am not alone in my belief that God has left the future open and could only have believed, as did Jesus that they would crucify Him. Belief is not the same as absolute knowledge.

You call it making stuff up. I don't think that is fair. Yes I change my views when I gain new information, and I respond to what I'm presented with, just as you do. In that thread about my belief for example, Straggler, (haven't seen him around for a while and I'll really miss his posts), caused my look at the question of causation of the universe in a very different way. My theological and political views have changed in the last few years by reading people like N T Wright, Alister McGrath, Polkinghorne and believe it or not by Dawkins and Hitchens.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 3:35 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2015 3:34 AM GDR has responded
 Message 134 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-01-2016 2:16 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 117 of 478 (775287)
12-30-2015 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Greatest I am
12-30-2015 11:20 AM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
GIA writes:

But Jesus did not think he was to die in any permanent way.

Yes, I believe that He believed that His life as he knew it would end but that He saw Himself as the one to be presented to the "Ancient of Days" as per Daniel 7. I contend that through prayer and His understanding of the Hebrew scriptures that He believed that He would be resurrected in some fashion into the next life. At any rate His going to the cross was an act of faith not of absolute knowledge.

GIA writes:

The messiah myth stated that the messiah would live and rule over the Jews. Not die and not return. That is why most Jews still wait for their messiah.

It was a lot more than that. The general belief was that the messiah would not only rule over the Jews but that he would lead them in battle against their enemies and vanquish them. Jesus was in line with that except that He said that the enemy wasn't the Romans but evil itself and the the weapon against evil is love. As the embodiment of the Word of God He also embodied Yahweh's return to His people.

Jesus how ever said that it wasn't all about the Jews, but that it went back to the original Abrahamic covenant that Yahweh, and by extension Himself, were there for the world. The point then was that He came to establish a Kingdom for the world that was there for the purpose of influencing the world by reflecting God's love, peace, justice etc into it.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2015 11:20 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 118 of 478 (775313)
12-31-2015 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Omnivorous
12-30-2015 4:31 PM


Omnivorous writes:

Jesus' personal history prior to crucifixion was already replete with signs and wonders, prophecies and miracles. He healed the sick and raised the dead; he cast out demons and fed a multitude with a few basketsful. He did these things much more publicly than he rose. He gathered a following passionate enough to alarm both the Jewish and the Roman authorities.

Omnivorous writes:

I initially responded to your post on this not because I reject your beliefs about Jesus' resurrection, but because I cannot believe that anyone capable of the pre-crucifixion miracles, performed before many witnesses, would be forgotten unless he rose from the dead to a few.

Here is a list of OT miracles. Old Testament Miracles. I point these out as the the Jews at the time believed in miracles whether or not any of these miracles are accurately reported or not. Jesus seems to have been revered as a prophet. Even the Qu'ran refers to Jesus as a prophet born of a virgin. They, as would I, see these miracles as being done by God the Father through Jesus. John 10:32

quote:
but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father.

The Jews had any number of prophets before Jesus with many of them being executed as well. The Gospel stories tell of the disciples deserting Jesus at the time of the crucifixion. It is obvious that they had come to the conclusion that they had backed a losing horse and simply went back to their previous lives dissociating themselves from Jesus as they did not want to suffer a similar fate. So the Jews themselves could see Jesus as a prophet and see God doing miraculous things through Him but not as the messiah, let alone as the embodiment of Yahweh's return to His people, the miracles wouldn't have done it. Crucifixion was considered to be a shameful death and certainly the messiah couldn't possibly suffer such a fate at the hands of the Romans.

So, as we can see from the Gospels the miracles themselves were enough to keep the disciples onside prior to the crucifixion but not at all after the crucifixion until the resurrection. The resurrection meant that death itself no longer had a hold on them and that God's Kingdom had been launched although in a very different manner than what they had anticipated. Also in spite of His shameful death it meant that God had vindicated Jesus and affirmed His life and message.

Also, the miracles themselves would not have been sufficient to cause them to take Jesus' life and message out to the world. If they were going to carry on as followers of Jesus, (which is fairly obvious not the case anyway), it would have been a strictly Jewish thing. They had always felt that Yahweh was there for the Jews and now all of a sudden they are taking this message to Jews and Gentiles alike.

As I pointed out the Gospels tell about the disciples pretty much abandoning Jesus went things went south. They aren't likely to write an account concerning the closest followers of Jesus that show them in a bad light unless those accounts are accurate.

I think that you make a good well thought out point but I contend that the Gospel accounts don't support your position.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Omnivorous, posted 12-30-2015 4:31 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 2:42 AM GDR has responded
 Message 121 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 3:48 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 126 by Omnivorous, posted 12-31-2015 12:50 PM GDR has responded

    
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 119 of 478 (775315)
12-31-2015 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by GDR
12-31-2015 2:35 AM


If i am off topic sorry, but remember Leviticus 26, beginning with verse 40, is the confession Israel would be called upon to make. Israel would also have to accept the remainder of her punishment, that failure under the contract would call for and that would be the seven year tribulation. When John the Baptizer came along, had anything new begun? He simply called upon Israel to change their minds about their righteousness. 


John the Baptizer came in connection with Yahwehís earthly nation Israel and in accordance with an offer to confess their failure under the contract in order to gain their promised land. That confession itself would be considered a fruit of righteousness in the eyes of Yahweh. The focus during John the Baptizerís ministry was still Israel and the issue continued to be the land. Nothing had changed except that Israel was being offered the opportunity to confess their failure under the contract. Israel continued to be the focus and the land continued to be the issue.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by GDR, posted 12-31-2015 2:35 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 2:34 PM Bob Bobber has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6888
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 120 of 478 (775318)
12-31-2015 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by GDR
12-30-2015 6:51 PM


GDR writes:

That is not consistent with my belief. I believe that God has established a world where the future is unknown to both God and us.

There! You've done it again! Make something up - your belief - and present it as evidence. You've also done away with one of the major characteristics of a god - omniscience.

You call it making stuff up. I don't think that is fair. Yes I change my views when I gain new information,

But there is no new information possible about either your god or your religion. All there is is new information about the natural not the supernatural. What that's doing is chipping away at the things you believed as science makes some of them look rather daft to make it continue to fit what you want to believe. So now god is no longer all knowing.... What next? Is omnipresence up for grabs?

If you keep whittling away at this you'll be an atheist in a few years. Welcome :-)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 6:51 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 3:15 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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