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Author
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Topic: Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 38 of 478 (774577)
12-19-2015 5:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
12-19-2015 4:43 AM
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Re: All are condemned
Faith writes: The idea is that we are all ALREADY condemned to Hell because of our sins, but salvation is possible through Christ if we accept it. If we don't, we are still condemned to Hell. Yep, the most heinous scam ever perpetrated. 'You're going to hell unless you join my global pyramid scheme'. Empires were built on that single, revolting lie.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by Faith, posted 12-19-2015 4:43 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 50 of 478 (775093)
12-28-2015 3:54 AM
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I do find it odd that two devout believers in the same book can disagree so strongly about what it means. Given that this is supposed to be the most important story ever told and to be the actual word of God, how come it wasn't written in a way that Is impossible to disagree about? It supposedly had a purpose - to save us - and it was so important to God that He sent he son to give us this Word so how come it's such tosh that anyone can make anything they like up about it? Of course neither GDR nor Faith are making up their own stories, they're simply regurgitating stories about the bible that have been refined for centuries by various apologists and have chosen their preferred interpretations. But both apparently have them confirmed by God himself through prayer. An disinterested observer of all this would be asking himself how they can reconcile these things.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 9:37 AM | | Tangle has not replied | | | Message 56 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 11:25 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 62 of 478 (775117)
12-28-2015 2:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 56 by GDR
12-28-2015 11:25 AM
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GDR writes: I agree that there is no certainty within Christianity.... Forget certainty, there isn't even consistency. It's a hopeless mess where anything can be believed from the same words. It's obvious man-made bunkum that can can be seen directly from the text even before you get into the historicity of the thing. But I note that both you and Faith failed to pick up the point that you both believe through prayer - talking to your god - that you have the correct interpretation. He's lying to at least one of you isn't he?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 11:25 AM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 63 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 2:08 PM | | Tangle has not replied | | | Message 65 by Phat, posted 12-28-2015 2:19 PM | | Tangle has not replied | | | Message 66 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 2:31 PM | | Tangle has not replied | | | Message 67 by kbertsche, posted 12-28-2015 2:35 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 68 of 478 (775124)
12-28-2015 2:53 PM
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So in the space of half a dozen posts we have three different opinions from 3 different Christians. And I'm supposed to accept that this is the word of god? He's got the worst marketing communications department that there's ever been if that's the case. Word of god, pah! And yet more sidestepping this prayer malarkey - you guys tell us that you talk to god so one imagines that he'd put you right if you were on the wrong track about what he meant by this 'word' stuff. And yet it seems he's content to let you believe what you like about it. Even though in at least one case, it seems likely it'll put you into hell. The excuse is that it's human - well exactly!
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 69 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 3:01 PM | | Tangle has not replied | | | Message 70 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 3:19 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 71 of 478 (775128)
12-28-2015 3:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 70 by GDR
12-28-2015 3:19 PM
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GDR writes:
It's back to the same thing again. Yes, it is ambiguous - we don't have certainty. With people who have actually put thought into it, there isn't likely to be two Christians anywhere that will agree on everything. If we had certainty then we would lose our ability to freely choose free of self interest. It also of course holds true about prayer. It is clear that the nature of God as we see it perfectly embodied in Jesus is far more concerned about our heart for all of His creation than He is about Doesn't all that sound like a massive invention and cop out to you? God sends his only son to the world and has him murdered to redeem our sins and show us the way into his kindom, but does it in such a way as to make it interpretable anywhichway? Then the believers pray to him and simply have what they already believe confirmed. Doesn't that smell just a liitle like it might just be people deluding other people and themselves?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 3:19 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 72 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 4:28 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 74 of 478 (775136)
12-28-2015 6:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 72 by GDR
12-28-2015 4:28 PM
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GDR writes: There is the belief that a single cell and ultimately sentient moral life evolved without any intelligent or moral input from the endless chance combinations of mindless particles. That is without answering the question of why those particles existed in the first place. These aren't alternatives GDR, you're just trying to create false choices. Also, as you know, none of these things that you incorrectly call 'beliefs' help you explain Christian beliefs.
God did not have Him murdered. It was people who murdered Him. It was God who resurrected Him. Now that IS interesting. If god didn't know he was going to be murdered what kind of god was he and if he hadn't been murdered what kind of prophet would his son have been? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 4:28 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 75 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 2:12 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 77 of 478 (775157)
12-29-2015 3:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 75 by GDR
12-29-2015 2:12 AM
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GDR writes: atheistic beliefs require far more faith than do Christian beliefs IMHO.
It's illuminating how you keep saying this. It's like you need to believe that this is true for you to be able to believe the other things that you believe. How many times have you been told that this is nonsense, yet you carry on saying it as though you've never heard it? Atheists don't necessarily 'believe' anything about anything, they just don't believe in god. That's it, they don't have to have any alternative thing in place of it. It's obviously an impossible thing for believers to get their heads round. I can only assume that they and you can't imagine that it's possible not to go through life thinking and worrying about such things.
See my post #37 in this thread. I have already covered that. That's a post by Faith. When you find it, I really hope it doesn't include CS bloody Lewis's imaginings. You quote him like he has some special information about god and his thoughts. He doesn't. What he does have is a good mind for fantasy writing.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 2:12 AM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 79 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 12:22 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 82 of 478 (775179)
12-29-2015 12:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 79 by GDR
12-29-2015 12:22 PM
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GDR writes: Why discuss it then. You have no position to defend and yet you denounce as ridiculous the views of those who have come to a conclusion about the why's of our existence. Actually your view sounds a great deal more agnostic to me than atheistic. Presumably to be an atheistic one has to believe in our existence being the result of purely materialistic origins. You're terribly confused about this non-belief stuff. Have you ever met an atheist or someone who just doesn't care about religion? If you go to northern European countries like Sweden, 70% of them are atheists. In the UK I think it's around 40%. I'm not a typical atheist, I AM interested in discussing belief and alternative ideas of origins - do you imagine that 70% of Swedes are on forums arguing about it? The vast majority of atheists just don't care about this stuff, they just don't believe that there's a god. End. They get on with their lives without ever really considering it. In other words it's just normal. I'm trying to explain to you that it's not a defence of your beliefs to point out (incorrectly) my 'belief' in something else. I'm also trying to get you to understand that people can and do have no beliefs and manage to have fulfilling, useful and moral lives without giving a thought to all this stuff. I'll go find your other post.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 12:22 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 88 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 8:10 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 84 of 478 (775181)
12-29-2015 1:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 75 by GDR
12-29-2015 2:12 AM
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GDR writes: The Gospel of John tells about the Word or Wisdom of God which existed before all things and brought about all things. He goes on to say that this Word or Wisdom became flesh. In other words Jesus perfectly embodied the true nature and will of God. This is quite different than the idea of stating simply that Jesus is God, as obviously it begs the question of just who He was praying to. Praying to oneself doesn't make a lot of sense. You stated that supposedly Jesus knew He wasn't going to die. I suggest that when He went into Jerusalem He did it knowing that He would die because He knew full well what the response of those in power would be with those who did what He was about to do. His message angered every power group in the country. His allies were the the weak and helpless, the prostitutes, the hated tax collectors etc. He prayed that it wouldn't be the Father's will for Him to have to go through with it. However, through prayer and through His understanding of the Hebrew scriptures he believed that this is what He had to do and that somehow God would in the end use this sacrifice for the good of the world. The point is that He went to His death as an act of faith, not with any certainty of His resurrection. Any other belief denies His humanity and belittles the enormity of what He was doing. His divinity comes through His embodiment of the Word of God and by extension the embodiment of the return of Yahweh to His people. It was the resurrection of Jesus by the Father that affirmed and vindicated the life and message of Jesus and it was God the Father, the Ancient if Days that enthroned Jesus. This doesn't answer my question which was
Tangle writes:
Now that IS interesting. If god didn't know he was going to be murdered what kind of god was he and if he hadn't been murdered what kind of prophet would his son have been? I'm ignoring the entire logical mess of whether Jesus was god and whether he knew he was going to die, I'm talking about god himself. He must have known that he would be and if that is correct, then it was inevitable. If it was inevitable, people had no choice - they were acting out the script to God's play. And if it it wasn't inevitable that he would be killed and in fact had nobody took any notice of him strange storytelling he could not have been the prophet. So the whole thing was rigged from the start wasn't it?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 2:12 AM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 90 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 8:51 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 97 of 478 (775208)
12-30-2015 3:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 88 by GDR
12-29-2015 8:10 PM
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GDR writes: Again, if they call themselves atheistic then they must have considered it and then gotten on with their lives. God is a very big deal in your life so you can't understand how for others it is not. For most people in northern Europe and particularly Scandanavia, belief in God is simply not a 'normal' thing. It's just not a consideration. If you asked them whether they believe in god they'd find it a weird thing - it's just not any part of their lives and never has been. If you imagined a world where god hadn't been invented, no-one would believe in God and the term atheist wouldn't make much sense even though it would describe that populations lack of belief. That's as close as I can get to it for you - it's simply an absense that is not substituted by a belief in something else. We don't have a word for a lack of belief in pixies and by not believing in pixies we don't believe in something else instead - it's the same idea. It's a change that's happened over three or four generations. If you're not brought up in a religious atmosphere, it's not something that enters into your thoughts. Religions are learned and reinforcd by their surrounding society. They'll have considered religion only because its unavoidable in everyday life, but will have given it no more than passing thought - a quirk of a minority, like vegitarianism. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 88 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 8:10 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 114 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 6:26 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 98 of 478 (775210)
12-30-2015 3:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 90 by GDR
12-29-2015 8:51 PM
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GDR writes: I believe that God has created a world where ..... You keep telling me what you believe as though this is some kind of evidence or explanation or argument. You must know that it's not. And you don't seem to get the arguments being made because you find it impossible to step outside your beliefs to fully understand the argument. I'll try again. God knew that Jesus would be murdered because he's all knowing. Jesus had to be resurrected to be special. So, in fact, it was all just a script. God sent Jesus to be murdered, he was murdered because that was in the script. There was no option for him not to be murdered because if he wasn't, there could be no resurrection and therefore no redemption for the human race which was god's intent. ps I know all about Polkinhorne, and Lewis and etc etc. These people - like you - present their beliefs as evidence. They're not. Just because they're celebrities (even notable scientists, which I know you think should impress me, but does not) does not mean they have any special knowledge of god. They don't. They just make stuff up to fit like every other believer. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 8:51 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 99 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 5:49 AM | | Tangle has replied | | | Message 116 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 6:51 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 101 of 478 (775221)
12-30-2015 9:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
12-30-2015 5:49 AM
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Phat writes: All that you have shown in your last two posts is that Jesus was foreknown to be part of the plan Think it through Phat. If the murder of Jesus was inevitable and part of the plan, where is our free will?
Phat writes: And for a guy who claims not to give the ideas much thought, you seem to like hanging around I do give it thought, my point was that the majority of people that we call atheists - because they don't believe in god - don't give it much if any thought. They just don't believe in god. It's not a big or even interesting thing for them, it's like not believing in elves - just not a 'thing'.
(and Im glad you do! ) Masochist!
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 99 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 5:49 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 103 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 1:59 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 107 of 478 (775251)
12-30-2015 2:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
12-30-2015 1:59 PM
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Re: Foreknown and Determined
Phat writes: We freely chose the wrong path. We're talking about murdering Jesus. The wrong 'choice' in that scenario would be to have NOT murdered him. I'm claiming that those at the time were acting on rails - they could do nothing else because if they did, the human race would not have been redeemed and god's plan would have failed. It's because god's plan could not fail, that there was no free choice involved.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 103 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 1:59 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 3:04 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 110 of 478 (775270)
12-30-2015 5:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
12-30-2015 3:04 PM
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Re: Foreknown and Determined
Phat writes:
Perhaps we had no choice to be fallen
You mean we're just products of evolution? Who would have thought it? :-)
1) The Holy Spirit,Creator of all seen and unseen 2) The rebellious spirit...allowed to exist by GOD yet not directly created by Him. God created potentialized evil. Lucifer became Satan through actualizing evil. God may well have written that script as well and Lucifer had no choice in the matter to become the evil one--- I just can't take this fairy story twaddle seriously - sorry, it's just too childish.
nor do we have any choice...it is all pre-determined. In which case I have no reason to try and convert atheists nor do any churches have any need to exist. Well no, those aren't the alternatives. And no, it's not all pre-determined. But there's no need to waste your breath on atheists or in churches - just get on with your life being a decent person.
Assuming we have no choice whether to serve (or acknowledge God) or not, does it matter to you personally what you do? We have choice, it's just more restricted than we tend to think. The god stuff is totally irrelevant. Of course it matters what I do, why wouldn't it?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 3:04 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 120 of 478 (775318)
12-31-2015 3:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 116 by GDR
12-30-2015 6:51 PM
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GDR writes: That is not consistent with my belief. I believe that God has established a world where the future is unknown to both God and us. There! You've done it again! Make something up - your belief - and present it as evidence. You've also done away with one of the major characteristics of a god - omniscience.
You call it making stuff up. I don't think that is fair. Yes I change my views when I gain new information, But there is no new information possible about either your god or your religion. All there is is new information about the natural not the supernatural. What that's doing is chipping away at the things you believed as science makes some of them look rather daft to make it continue to fit what you want to believe. So now god is no longer all knowing.... What next? Is omnipresence up for grabs? If you keep whittling away at this you'll be an atheist in a few years. Welcome :-)
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 116 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 6:51 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 144 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 3:15 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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