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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2936 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 121 of 478 (775319)
12-31-2015 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by GDR
12-31-2015 2:35 AM


Just a thought? We see the prayer of faith Israel walked by sight, Yahweh allowed their prayer life to work in connection with sight as that earthly kingdom was on their doorstep. Yahweh worked in connection with the sign nation, the healings that were performed and the power resident in the prayer of faith. When the kingdom program was ongoing and Jesus was ready to rule and reign right here on earth, a troubled believer could pray the prayer of faith, when presented with suffering circumstances and those circumstance would disappear. Yahweh provided that prayer of faith, because that kingdom was at hand and the time for troubling circumstances had come to an end. It was time to put an end to pain and suffering, because it was time for the King to rule and reign on this earth. 

Where the Mosaic covenant was contracted between Yahweh and the nation, the Davidic covenant is contracted between Yahweh and a single individual, the king. The Davidic covenant is an eternal and unconditional covenant between Yahweh and the House of David, or the dynasty of David. Yahweh says that David and his descendants may be punished for sin. They certainly will be punished for sin, but Yahweh will not take the kingdom away from them as he did from Saul. Yahweh’s unconditional and eternal covenants with the patriarchs and with David do not prelude the possibility of punishment or chastisement for sin as specified in the conditional Mosaic covenant. 

The covenant with David, it’s a covenant of grant, it’s a grant of a reward for loyal service and deeds. Yahweh rewards David with the gift of an unending dynasty, in exchange for his loyalty. Yahweh’s oath to preserve the Davidic dynasty, would lead eventually to a popular belief in the invincibility of the Holy City. The belief in Israel’s ultimate deliverance from enemies, became bound up with David and his dynasty. When the kingdom fell finally to the Babylonians, the promise to David’s House was believed to be eternal. The community looked to the future for a restoration of the Davidic line or Davidic king or messiah. 

The messiah simply means anointed, one who is meshiach is anointed with the holy oil, That is a reference to the fact that the king was initiated into office by means of holy oil being poured on his head. So King David was the messiah of Yahweh, the king anointed by or to Yahweh. And in the exile, Israelites would pray for another messiah, meaning another king from the House of David appointed and anointed by Yahweh to rescue them from enemies, and reestablish them as a nation at peace in their land as David had done. The Israelites hope for a messiah; it involved the restoration of the nation in its land under a Davidic king. 

The 12 apostles preached the reality of the resurrection of Jesus ‘the messiah’. The 12 apostles had preached the necessity of Jesus ‘the messiah’ being raised from among the dead, in order to sit on the throne of David in the promised kingdom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by GDR, posted 12-31-2015 2:35 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 3:54 AM Bob Bobber has replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2936 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 122 of 478 (775320)
12-31-2015 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Bob Bobber
12-31-2015 3:48 AM


Just some thoughts about the different kinds of prayers of the Israelite?Before that kingdom could be realized, there was a prophetic event that had to take place first. The way Jesus taught has special application to that tribulation period to those people who were being taught to pray in this manner. This will be a very heartfelt prayer during the tribulation period. During the time of Jacob’s trouble, the Israelites will be under tremendous persecution from the antichrist. He will be putting Israelites to death for their faith. The Israelites will be praying at that time, thy kingdom come the promised earthly kingdom to be set up right here on earth, because the only hope of deliverance for the believing Israelites at that time, will be the coming of the king and setting up of the earthly kingdom. 

Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven is a divine definition of the millennium. The kingdom is when the will of Yahweh is carried out in the earth to the same degree it is carried out in heaven. The Israelites have an earthly hope, they were promised the earth forever. At the time when Israel will be facing the wrath of Satan - the time that Israel was being prepared for when they were being taught how to pray - Satan will have been kicked out of the heaven and cast down to the earth and Yahweh’s will, will indeed be being done in the realm where Satan has just been cast out. 

This prayer is appropriate for the Israelites of that day, they will be praying at that time just as the disciples had been taught to pray. It is recited in churches across the country in our day. It is recited as though it is a prayer for today. While we are not to use vain repetition, it is recited like vain repetition as people stand up and uttering together. At the time this prayer was being taught to pray our Father meant that you recognized, if you were an Israelite, that you had a covenant relationship with Yahweh; you were his children. 

These saints of the earthly kingdom program will be praying in the day Give us this day our daily bread. They will be worrying about that day, not the next day as that earthly kingdom becomes a reality for those Israelites. Debtors Israel’s status as a nation above all nations depended on this very thing. The believers of Israel will be seeking forgiveness in respect to their willingness to forgive. Yahweh will not restore that nation to a place of national prominence above all nations of the earth until they adhere to the exhortation, forgive us our sins as WE (corporately) are willing to forgive those who have sinned against us. 

There will be a people for Yahweh on the earth during those eventful years, and Yahweh indeed has provided for their instruction, and warning, and encouragement, in the second and third chapters of the Book of Revelation. Right at the beginning, they are the first subjects of Divine remembrance, provision, and care. Their needs must be first provided for, before anything else is recorded of the things which John saw; and there they will find what is specially written for their learning. But those readers will be at once be reminded of the various stages of their own past history, and they will find in almost every sentence some allusion to the circumstances in which they will find themselves as described in these seven letters. 

They are written to the People supposed to be well-versed in the history of the Old Testament, and well-acquainted with all that had happened to their fathers and had been written for their admonition. Instructed in the past history of their nation, they will readily understand the relation between the testings and judgments in the past with which they are familiar, and those similar circumstances in which they will find themselves in a yet future day. As we read these letters, the references to the Old Testament in the seven letters correspond with the historical order of the events, so it is with respect to the promises contained in these letters. 

While the historical events connected with the rebukes are carried down from Exodus to the period of the Minor Prophets, the promises cover a different period; commencing with the period of Eden, and ending with the period of Solomon. The subjects of the rebukes follow the order of the departure of the People from Yahweh. Their decline and apostasy is traced out in the historical references contained in these letters. But when we turn to the promises, then all is different. 

Thy proceed in the opposite direction. The order, instead of descending from Israel’s highest ground of privilege (Exodus) to the lowest stage of destitution (Minor Prophets), the order ascends from tending a garden to sharing his throne. 

The seven promises are all intensely individual, there is no corporate existence recognized as such. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil one. (AntiChrist) The temptation spoken of here has to do with testing. Jesus had something particular in mind as he taught them how to be praying. The prayer of faith was a taste of the kingdom in time past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 3:48 AM Bob Bobber has replied

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 Message 123 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 3:59 AM Bob Bobber has not replied

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2936 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 123 of 478 (775321)
12-31-2015 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Bob Bobber
12-31-2015 3:54 AM


Sorry, just one more thought? While the King was on the earth, he had the power on earth to forgive people their sins, which would include physical healing in connection with earthly kingdom prophecy. When it came to Israel’s promised earthly kingdom and the forgiveness of sins by the earthly King of that promised earthly kingdom, what was absolutely essential to that forgiveness being granted? It’s always been the issue of faith down through out history. Faith of course, without faith they would not be forgiven and without forgiveness there would not be any healing. What would faith do in that program, when faith was called upon to do a work to prove itself?

Why would forgiveness and the necessity of that forgiveness be an important thing for Israel to understand? The answer to that is because of another concept that had its beginning in the garden called guilt. That guilt-worthiness in the mind of people originated in the garden can be plainly seen. You see, the problem was not that the Gentiles before Israel had no sense of guilt-worthiness. The problem is, they had no fear of Yahweh given the guilt-worthiness of which they were instinctively aware. They had a conscience. Guilt can be a wonderful thing when dealt with according to a proper understanding, but it can be a horrible, most devastating thing when Yahweh’s solution for it is not fully understood and appreciated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 3:54 AM Bob Bobber has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 124 of 478 (775322)
12-31-2015 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by GDR
12-30-2015 6:16 PM


quote:
However, I understand that the process that evolutionary changes have been caused by random mutations. If I have this right we would be unable to perceive whether any specific mutation was externally interfered with or not, which is not to say that it is required.
Evolution requires that the replication process does not always make exact copies, and that those differences are at least sometimes inheritable. This is what I mean by "imperfect replicators". Given this, evolution will occur in the absence of any external interference.
quote:
From a naturalist POV we would also require some process to bring about the existence of the replicators, and a process for that process and so on.
Naturalism does not require an infinite regress. Science, in the other hand, is (rightly) reluctant to conclude that we have reached the end of explanation and will continue to look until it is certain we can go no further.
quote:
I have put up my own position numerous times and if I have to keep repeating it in every thread I'll run out of time to participate. A while back I started a thread on my beliefs which sounds egotistical but I did it in an attempt to not have to keep repeating things over and over for which I didn't have the time.
The pint is, of course, that while you claimed to be "only defending" your own views you were in fact only attacking an opposing view. And doing so dishonestly.
quote:
But yes, I do contend that my views are more plausible, and yes, I agree that is simply my belief, and that others, like yourself, disagree and have different beliefs.
Unfortunately your contentions frequently lack intellectual honesty and sometimes even lack plain honesty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 6:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 125 of 478 (775323)
12-31-2015 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by GDR
12-30-2015 6:26 PM


GDR writes:
I still don't buy your point about belief. It isn't a lack of belief in pixies, it is my belief that they don't exist.
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god. That's it, nothing else. Nothing more complicated than that. No-one knows whether god exists or not, but some people are pretty convinced that he doesn't - I'm one of them - but most atheists will say that they don't know if god exists or not. Nevertheless, they don't have a belief that he does.
Presumably the atheistic belief is that God doesn't exist.
No, not necessarily, they just don't believe in a god.
If an individual hasn't considered the notion of god(s) then presumably they wouldn't call themselves atheistic. When someone says, "I am an atheist", they are making a considered statement that they have come to the conclusion or belief that there is no god(s).
Almost all atheists accept that there may be a god. A god can not be ruled out because we have incomplete knowledge of the universe. Most atheists - like me - that actively research and discuss these things have come to the conclusion that there is also no god(s), but in Scandanavia where most people are atheists, it's just a deafault position. Similar to the situation here 500 years ago where Christianity was the default position and to not believe in god would have been nearly impossible. It's just programming. Not something that requires the taking of a position or making a statement for - just life.
You call yourself an atheist, (correct me if I'm wrong), because you have put thought into it and come to a specific conclusion. Both of us hold differing but thoughtful conclusions with, (I assume you would agree), the full knowledge that we could be wrong.
Yes, correct.
But I doubt that most church attending Christians have put much thought into it either - that is, thought outside their belief - they just believe because they've been taught to believe. Similarly people who were never taught to believe, mostly don't. If asked they probably wouldn't claim to be atheists, they'd probably say they don't know. Nevertheless, they don't believe in god and are therefore default atheists.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 6:26 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 126 of 478 (775342)
12-31-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by GDR
12-31-2015 2:35 AM


GDR writes:
I think that you make a good well thought out point but I contend that the Gospel accounts don't support your position.
Yet the founding of other faiths and their persistence over time do support it.
Perhaps, if Yahweh hardened Pharoah's heart, he also made Jesus' Jewish disciples remarkably fickle, despite the miracles they witnessed.
If I shared your faith in the Gospels, no doubt I would agree with your position.
Have a great New Year, GDR. It's always a pleasure to disagree at length with a calm Christian.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by GDR, posted 12-31-2015 2:35 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(2)
Message 127 of 478 (775344)
12-31-2015 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
12-28-2015 12:06 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Hi Faith,
You don't know me but I've been following your posts for quite some time. It gave me chills to see you put the word Genocide in "Quotation Marks" as if were not really Genocide. It is, in actuality, Genocide. The barbarism commanded by God takes the breath away from those not steeped in and hardened to such atrocities. It's amazing to hear Christians misrepresent Syrian refugees fleeing for their lives, yet fall all over themselves in desperate attempts to excuse and justify the blood-dripping pages of their own holy texts. Your "God" (Do you mind if I put THAT word in quotation marks?) on multiple occasions ordered the death of children and babies because their parents were not Jewish. Or condemned a man to a bloody primitive death of caving in his skull with stones...because Saturday.
I have said this before to a friend, that if you want to understand what it was like living under the rule of Moses look no further than the Taliban in Afghanistan. They do those kinds of things too. If you want to relive the glory of Joshua, where a merciless tribe of religious fanatics overrun a vast parcel of real estate, killing men, women, and children, even animals, because they worship a different deity, look no farther than ISIS in Syria. They are doing this RIGHT NOW. They are using the smallest infractions (picking up firewood, anybody?) as "Terrible violations" (in your words) of their God's commandment. If you defend the bloodshed instigated by the God of your preferred holy book, you have no right to ever pretend you don't understand ISIS. They think exactly like Moses and Joshua, and you, when you defend your Old Testament heroes.
And this brutality is carried over into the New Testament. There is no depth of disobedience my daughter could fall to that would make me want to grab and slit the throat of a little kitten or puppy, and watch it die choking on it's own blood. Or a little lamb. And to take out that kind of brutal vengeance on a HUMAN...that I know to be innocent of any wrongdoing...the sheer immorality of that act curls the toes.
Yet here you are defending it.
How?
Please don't put Genocide in quotation marks.
Edited by Aussie, : Spelling
Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 12:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 12-31-2015 2:04 PM Aussie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 128 of 478 (775346)
12-31-2015 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by kbertsche
12-28-2015 4:43 PM


Faith, please do not misrepresent me. Saying that I "pick and choose" is just as inaccurate as GDR saying that you (or I) "worship the Bible". My view of inspiration and inerrancy is essentially the same as your own. Where you and I differ is in our interpretation of a few passages, primarily the early chapters of Genesis.
I got thrown by your saying your views fall somewhere between mine and GDR's To my mind he's SO wrong to place yourself between him and me makes you pretty wrong yourself.
I'm on a borrowed laptop away from my place for a week so I may have to come back to this when I'm home.
Biblical interpretation is complicated if we want to do it carefully and accurately. Yes, some teachings (like the basic message of Scripture) are so simple and straightforward that even a child can understand them. But other secondary issues are so difficult that the best biblical scholars have differing opinions of the correct interpretations.
Not the orthodox scholars. They agree even on those difficult passages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by kbertsche, posted 12-28-2015 4:43 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 129 of 478 (775348)
12-31-2015 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Aussie
12-31-2015 12:56 PM


Re: misrepresentation
I remember you from some time ago Aussie.
Yes the idea that God commits murder is a big fat lie. He judges nations and we're to learn about His standards from the examples given. It's very fashionable now to accuse Him of murder. And of course you misrepresent the situation drastically as the fashionable viewpoint requires. Comparing Jehovah with Allah is about as evil as you can get. Enjoy your self-righteousness, that's about all I can say to people who hold this view.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Aussie, posted 12-31-2015 12:56 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Aussie, posted 12-31-2015 2:54 PM Faith has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(5)
Message 130 of 478 (775356)
12-31-2015 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
12-31-2015 2:04 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Would you mind being more specific, Faith?
In which way did God NOT commit murder? You have argued voluminously on the historicity of Noah's flood, in which God "Literally" murders the planet, almost in it's entirety. Grown-ups, children, babies, the unborn, animals. How did I misrepresent Joshua, when I compared his tactics to modern ISIS? How were they not terrorists? I agree with you in that we can learn a lot about your God from the examples of his actions.
More to the point of this thread, how is it truly justice to kill the innocent for the guilty, as He killed Jesus instead of us? And like He killed Achan's children when their father stole after the battle at AI? I think you are just substituting the word "Judging" for "Slaughtering." He was harsh, bloodthirsty, and for the most part, pitiless. These are the examples He gave.
I love and discipline my daughter. But the punishment has to fit the "crime." When she disobeys me, or steps out of line, I don't start killing things. I've never been so mad at her that I demanded blood and death from something. The wages of sin are death because God wants blood. Please tell me where I am wrong. Because I am a moral being (all the many flaws aside) I did not start killing the first time she stepped out of line. I instructed her, at her level, and gave her another chance, then another, then another... and she is learning and growing into a beautiful, socially well-adjusted person. Not God. He wanted blood through the ages from the first bite of fruit.
Please don't confuse our moral outrage at blood-sacrifice of the innocent for self-righteousness.
Edited by Aussie, : spelling

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 12-31-2015 2:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Omnivorous, posted 12-31-2015 5:19 PM Aussie has replied
 Message 132 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 7:31 PM Aussie has replied
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 01-01-2016 2:18 PM Aussie has replied
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 01-01-2016 2:22 PM Aussie has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(4)
Message 131 of 478 (775363)
12-31-2015 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Aussie
12-31-2015 2:54 PM


Re: misrepresentation
It's good to be reminded of my childhood moral outrage at the slaughter of the innocents in the Bible. Those stories made me question my church, and the inadequate answers made me leave. My long ago revulsion still makes me question the moral sanity of Biblical Inerrantists.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Aussie, posted 12-31-2015 2:54 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 01-01-2016 2:16 PM Omnivorous has not replied
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Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 2936 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 132 of 478 (775366)
12-31-2015 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Aussie
12-31-2015 2:54 PM


Re: misrepresentation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mtLXpgjHL0&feature=related
When it comes to the flood, what if someone showed you how to add animal parts to this video? That is what Yahweh wiped out? We even have proof that that knowledge was revealed to the human race again?
Murder is a wrong way to look at this, because it was Yahweh’s land? If I came into your house and started doing things against your living standers, would you like that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Aussie, posted 12-31-2015 2:54 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Aussie, posted 01-01-2016 11:11 AM Bob Bobber has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 133 of 478 (775371)
01-01-2016 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
12-30-2015 3:04 PM


Re: Foreknown and Determined
God may well have written that script as well and Lucifer had no choice in the matter to become the evil one---
nor do we have any choice...it is all pre-determined. In which case I have no reason to try and convert atheists nor do any churches have any need to exist.
Its Gods play.
So now we have a fully predetermined universe.
Assuming we have no choice whether to serve (or acknowledge God) or not, does it matter to you personally what you do?
It matters insofar if the Scriptures are cogent, coherent, and free from internal inconsistencies. If you set out to show that we have freewill, then how do you reconcile instances where there is clearly no freewill offered to some people?
Did the Pharaoh have freewill? If god hardened his heart, then God is directly responsible for Pharaoh's condition. If God controlled him like a puppet, then he did not have freewill.
And then of course there is the illusion of freewill when there is none to speak of, for God's own omniscience makes it an impossibility.
Let's use a card game as an analogy. If you know the outcome of a "choice" (choice used very loosely here) then there really is no choice at all, only the illusion of it to those not in on the scam. The other players think they have a choice, but the deck is loaded by the dealer in a predetermined way. So it is with god in the scriptures.
If Lucifer only exists to be the bad guy, then did he have a choice or is he simply playing the role he was assigned? Obviously the latter.
Therefore there cannot be freewill where there is an omniscient God.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 3:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 134 of 478 (775372)
01-01-2016 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by GDR
12-30-2015 6:51 PM


Can't have it both ways
That is not consistent with my belief. I believe that God has established a world where the future is unknown to both God and us.
Then your "belief" is at odds with your own religion. Either God knows all things or he doesn't. And if he doesn't know all things, as you are suggesting here, then the Scriptures must necessarily be in error, in which case you would have to reasonably call in to question its entirety.
God's omniscience:
"For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything." -- John 3:20
"Do you know how God lays his command upon them and causes the lightning of his cloud to shine? Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge" -- Job 37:15-16
So which is it; because you can't have it both ways?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 6:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 5:31 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 135 of 478 (775407)
01-01-2016 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Bob Bobber
12-31-2015 7:31 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Hi Bob,
I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to see what DNA replication has to do with anything I said. As to your second point, if you came into my house as a guest and ate a piece of fruit I told you not to, I would not kill you and your children and their grandchildren etc...because that would be cruel and immoral.
And I certainly would not take out a brutal retribution for your little theft on my own child.
Happy 2016!
Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 7:31 PM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Bob Bobber, posted 01-01-2016 12:12 PM Aussie has replied

  
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