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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 361 of 1444 (773341)
11-30-2015 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 360 by Phat
11-29-2015 4:08 PM


Re: Evidence Schmevidence
Phat writes:
Which to me would be evidence that the atheist would get saved eventually.
And those guys who fly into buildings for 72 virgins after death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Phat, posted 11-29-2015 4:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 362 of 1444 (773347)
11-30-2015 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 360 by Phat
11-29-2015 4:08 PM


Re: Evidence Schmevidence
Phat writes:
Which to me would be evidence that the atheist would get saved eventually.
Still not evidence. You can't have evidence before the fact. Criminals don't leave fingerprints until they actually do the crime.
Jesus did (supposedly) say that you will be judged on what you DO, not on what you say - i.e. you will be judged on the evidence that actually exists.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 363 of 1444 (773387)
11-30-2015 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Phat
11-29-2015 4:08 PM


Re: Evidence Schmevidence
Phat writes:
I suppose this chalks up a point for the "Christianity is all about what we DO" crowd. and i suppose that what we *DO* is all of the evidence possible as to what Spirit is within us.
No, what you do is only evidence of what you do and not evidence for what Spirit is within us.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 364 of 1444 (773401)
12-01-2015 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by Phat
09-29-2015 2:09 AM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Questioning and even doubting ones faith is a normal human reaction. I tend to believe that of one actually lost their faith they never had it to begin with. It takes works to maintain faith, but the Holy Spirit will support your efforts.
I staunchly disagree with this. I was dead serious about my faith and was absolutely captivated by the Word. But sometimes you see things for what they really are.
Is it conceivable for you to marry someone out of a genuine and deep love, but over the years you drift apart? If that is conceivable, then to malign backsliders as "never having faith to begin with" is an unfair mischaracterization.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 2:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 365 of 1444 (773403)
12-01-2015 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by Hyroglyphx
12-01-2015 2:47 AM


Re: Flickering Christians?
But I don't consider your case one identified as "backsliding". You have been forthright and honest..."seeing things as they really are"...and acknowledging that you drifted apart from "something". You in fact had faith to begin with.
AbE: Besides...if you divorced "Her" who else could take Her place?
Edited by Phat, : added

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 366 of 1444 (775642)
01-03-2016 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Asgara
12-29-2006 10:46 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Asgara writes:
Does he or does he not already have your life scripted out before he creates you? If he doesn't then he doesn't know what will happen.
I disagree. Just because God foreknows what will happen does not necessarily mean that He caused it to happen. He may well have scripted it---in fact, eternity itself may have a script. I see the counterarguments but all it shows me is that some people insist that they dont have free will because they can never do anything outside of the script. I have no problem with this, nor should anyone because who in their right mind would want to be independent of God, anyway? (Apart from satan)
This is in my mind the reason people claim they have no free will. Its only because they want to be truly free and independant of a scripted reality.
Newsflash: Its for your own good! You are not mature enough to be as gods.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by jar, posted 01-03-2016 9:13 PM Phat has replied
 Message 370 by ringo, posted 01-04-2016 11:13 AM Phat has replied
 Message 376 by Blue Jay, posted 01-07-2016 11:17 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 377 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-08-2016 6:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 367 of 1444 (775670)
01-03-2016 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Phat
01-03-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
Newsflash: Its for your own good! You are not mature enough to be as gods.
That is not what God said; in fact God said that we were mature enough to be gods.
Have you ever read the Bible Phat?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 01-03-2016 3:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 10:39 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 368 of 1444 (775709)
01-04-2016 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by jar
01-03-2016 9:13 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
What does the evidence show?
Has humanity eliminated wars in the past 2000 years?
How about lying,cheating, and stealing?
Greed, anyone?
You claim we were given a charge and a responsibility.
I dont see us getting any wiser--only more confused as we try to be gods instead of submitting to the Creator of all seen and unseen...which some say is antiquated thinking.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by jar, posted 01-03-2016 9:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Tangle, posted 01-04-2016 11:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 372 by jar, posted 01-04-2016 6:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9532
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 369 of 1444 (775712)
01-04-2016 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Phat
01-04-2016 10:39 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
What does the evidence show?
The evidence shows that crime has fallen steadily and sharply throughout the centuries. We are, in fact, "living in the most peaceful time of human existence."
I dont see us getting any wiser--only more confused as we try to be gods instead of submitting to the Creator of all seen and unseen...which some say is antiquated thinking.
Then you're not looking in the right places - a classic case of seeing what you want to see. I suggest you read Stephen Pinker. Here's a Ted talk he did, which should be required viewing.
Steven Pinker: The surprising decline in violence | TED Talk

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 10:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 370 of 1444 (775714)
01-04-2016 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Phat
01-03-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
... who in their right mind would want to be independent of God, anyway? (Apart from satan)
The fictional character "Satan" represents our own free will. What "Satan" wants IS what we want. Every time we're tempted to do something that we "shouldn't", we're wanting to be independent of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 01-03-2016 3:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 4:31 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 371 of 1444 (775746)
01-04-2016 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by ringo
01-04-2016 11:13 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
ringo writes:
The fictional character "Satan" represents our own free will. What "Satan" wants IS what we want. Every time we're tempted to do something that we "shouldn't", we're wanting to be independent of God.
This actually struck a chord in my intuition. It sounds right.
What this means, then..is that we humans have an inborn desire to rebel.
Perhaps this is what "Original Sin" actually is....an inborn desire to rebel.
So did God choose it for us by offering it as an option?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by ringo, posted 01-04-2016 11:13 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by ringo, posted 01-05-2016 10:44 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 372 of 1444 (775763)
01-04-2016 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by Phat
01-04-2016 10:39 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
What does the evidence show?
The evidence shows that you and so many others are as ignorant about reality as you are about history, the Bible, Christianity and almost every other subject.
Phat writes:
Has humanity eliminated wars in the past 2000 years?
Humanity has certainly controlled war and in just the last half century. There are fewer wars today than at any time in history and the wars that do happen lead to fewer casualties, both military and civilian than in any previous war.
Phat writes:
How about lying,cheating, and stealing?
And lying, cheating and stealing are human caused. Jesus or God will not stop them, never has and never will. The same is true of greed. Only humans can stop lying, cheating, stealing or greed.
Phat writes:
You claim we were given a charge and a responsibility.
I dont see us getting any wiser--only more confused as we try to be gods instead of submitting to the Creator of all seen and unseen...which some say is antiquated thinking.
And the evidence shows it is those people like you who are shirking, denying that responsibility; those that claim to submit to some creator, who count on anyone other than themselves to take responsibility to fix what is wrong.
The answer really is simple.
Don't lie.
Don't cheat.
Don't steal.
Take personal responsibility for all you do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 10:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 905 by Phat, posted 07-24-2020 8:09 PM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 373 of 1444 (775812)
01-05-2016 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by Phat
01-04-2016 4:31 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
What this means, then..is that we humans have an inborn desire to rebel.
I wouldn't call it a desire to "rebel". I'd call it a desire to have free will.
Phat writes:
So did God choose it for us by offering it as an option?
According to the Bible, God built it into us from the start - He forced it on us.
What doesn't make sense about a lot of theology is that He would give us free will and then punish us for using it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 4:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Phat, posted 01-07-2016 2:00 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 374 of 1444 (775947)
01-07-2016 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by ringo
01-05-2016 10:44 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
What doesn't make sense about a lot of theology is that He would give us free will and then punish us for using it.
I tend to believe that God disciplines (teaches)rather than punishes.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by ringo, posted 01-05-2016 10:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by ringo, posted 01-07-2016 10:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 375 of 1444 (775968)
01-07-2016 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by Phat
01-07-2016 2:00 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
I tend to believe that God disciplines (teaches)rather than punishes.
With everlasting torment? How can you learn anything if you don't get a chance to change your behaviour? That would only work if Hell was an empty threat (a lie).
And as I've said (many times) before, I don't see much (any) evidence that He's teaching Christians more than anybody else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Phat, posted 01-07-2016 2:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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