Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 211 of 478 (775739)
01-04-2016 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
01-04-2016 2:56 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith...why only blood? Why not simply forgive?
I answered you already. Go start your own religion. I'm sure you'll find followers.
I'm sorry Faith but I must have missed where you answered my question. Can you help me find it please? Why only blood? Why not actual forgiveness. Your God drips in the blood of others. Numberless bulls and heifers and birds and baby animals. His own son was fair game. Not Him.
Jesus LAID DOWN HIS OWN LIFE! He IS God, He IS the God of the Old Testament Whom you despise.
Go start your own religion.
Trying to sound prophetic doesn't help argue your case, it's not anointed, it just makes you sound silly. I don't despise Him, I just don't think He's real. I DO despise the twisted morality it conveys, causing beautiful people like you to be unable to distinguish right from wrong. Like the way you are defending the slaughter of children.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 2:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 3:13 PM Aussie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 212 of 478 (775740)
01-04-2016 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Aussie
01-04-2016 3:05 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Heb. 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
This is the way things are. This is Reality, built into the inexorable Moral Law. I'm sorry God didn't see fit to save you.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 3:05 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 3:32 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 219 by GDR, posted 01-04-2016 5:17 PM Faith has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 213 of 478 (775741)
01-04-2016 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Faith
01-04-2016 3:13 PM


Re: misrepresentation
This is the way things are. This is Reality, built into the inexorable Moral Law. I'm sorry God didn't see fit to save you.
Well that didn't take you long to write me off entirely. You're already speaking of me in the past tense
But before you and your blood-thirsty deity send me off into an eternity of unspeakable torture (Because He thought that eternal agony was a good idea), can you at least answer my question? Why innocent blood? Why does the death of the innocent sound like a good idea? He doesn't forgive without killing something. That is NOT forgiveness. I have forgiven my daughter a thousand times without killing anything.
I suppose the irony of you talking about Reality (Capital "R") and the "Inexorable Moral Law" while defending the slaughter of human babies is lost on you...
Edited by Aussie, : Spelling...
Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 3:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 214 of 478 (775742)
01-04-2016 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Aussie
01-04-2016 2:42 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Aussie writes:
One of my degrees is in Protestant theology, so yes I have some familiarity with Scripture.
Interesting. It will be nice to have someone else here with theological training. What degree and what school?
...Why should WE not feel offended when you offer us blood soaked pages and tell us we should intuitively understand that it is okay to carry out brutal vengeance on an innocent party, and call it "Justice."
With your theology background you know that in God's eyes no one is "innocent". Theologically, all of us participated in the disobedience of Adam and Eve in the Garden. We are all just as guilty as they were and just as deserving of death (c.f. Rom 5).

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 2:42 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 4:21 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 215 of 478 (775743)
01-04-2016 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by kbertsche
01-03-2016 11:20 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
I think that you are overlooking a number of points.
First, foreknowledge implies predestination. It is not possible to know the future unless the future is fixed.
Second, when it is considered that God supposedly created everything and intervenes within time It necessarily follows that God has a major hand in dictating the future. And if you also grant that God has perfect knowledge of the consequences of His actions, and can use that knowledge in deciding His actions then it follows that God has dictated everything that occurs. But if you do not grant it aren't you the one limiting God?
Third, what about God changing his mind? Saying that he will do something and then, in the end, not doing it? If God knew that he would not do it, wouldn't He be lying when he said that He would ? Consider the implications of that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by kbertsche, posted 01-03-2016 11:20 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by kbertsche, posted 01-04-2016 4:36 PM PaulK has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 216 of 478 (775745)
01-04-2016 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by kbertsche
01-04-2016 3:48 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Interesting. It will be nice to have someone else here with theological training. What degree and what school?
Hi kbertsche,
Nothing too fancy, an undergraduate degree from a Methodist college that Faith would be proud of. I'm not an expert and I don't want to be mistaken for one, but I have studied theology, and spent some time preaching the Gospel, and felt I might be able to make a contribution in this thread.
I do understand that "There is none righteous, no not one," but I am forced to accept the absurdity that we are condemned to eternal torment, initially because of one act of disobedience of one couple, many thousands of years in the past. And look at the disobedience...they ate fruit they were told not to. Enter six thousand years of human suffering.
And does it really make sense to you that we are sinners because we were "Theologically" participating in biting that fruit before we were born? Will you defend that as justice? Genghis Khan did some horrible and brutal things in his lifetime. Would you agree to the rounding up of all his living descendants today and executing them for "Genetically" participating in his atrocities a thousand years ago? I bet you wouldn't because you are a nice guy. But you are making that exact case.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by kbertsche, posted 01-04-2016 3:48 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 217 of 478 (775747)
01-04-2016 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by PaulK
01-04-2016 3:50 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
PaulK writes:
think that you are overlooking a number of points.
First, foreknowledge implies predestination. It is not possible to know the future unless the future is fixed.
Why not? I don't see how this follows at all. We are talking only about "prescience", knowing something ahead of time.
I suppose I could agree that the future is fixed by our future actions, and that God sees these ahead of time. But I don't think this says much.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2016 3:50 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2016 5:00 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 218 of 478 (775748)
01-04-2016 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by kbertsche
01-04-2016 4:36 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
quote:
Why not? I don't see how this follows at all. We are talking only about "prescience", knowing something ahead of time.
We're not talking about guessing or probabilistic predictions here. We're talking about actual certain and complete knowledge of the future. Which is logically impossible unless the future is entirely fixed. How could it be otherwise?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by kbertsche, posted 01-04-2016 4:36 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 5:22 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 219 of 478 (775750)
01-04-2016 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Faith
01-04-2016 3:13 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
This is the way things are. This is Reality, built into the inexorable Moral Law. I'm sorry God didn't see fit to save you.
Matthew 7 1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Luke 6 37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Faith you read and understand the Bible strictly through your fundamentalist glasses. Maybe you should try reading to see what it really says.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 3:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 220 of 478 (775751)
01-04-2016 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by PaulK
01-04-2016 5:00 PM


Reality Is Predetermined
We're talking about actual certain and complete knowledge of the future. Which is logically impossible unless the future is entirely fixed.
The future is only fixed in relation to decisions or events. Events happen based on either human decisions, natural occurrences, such as the weather or geologic upheaval, or outside interference.(outside of the earth) something such as a comet, perhaps.
Of these, all can be mathematically predicted except human decision.
If I peer into a magic crystal ball and see precisely what you did in 2020, all I am seeing is the decisions which you made prior to that date interacting with all of the other human decisions and outside events.
So is it inevitable? Is it "fixed" as you say? I would say that reality is inevitable. What happens at this moment in time happens irrevocably. The same happens at a set point in the future. The question, then...in regards to God...is whether by foreknowing everything that must happen He removes our free will.
The only way in which we dont have free will is that we cant do anything that God doesn't see. We are never free from His observation. Even satan--whom I believe was allowed to rebel and choose rebellion...was unable to break free of reality.
So did God create evil? In my belief, God created potential (or possible) evil and satan through his choice actualized evil. He took the action upon himself. So do we. We decide our course of action on a moment by moment basis. Just because the only options are the ones we choose does not remove our participation as aco-authors of our future.
Revelation explains it. Jesus was(past)is(present) and eternally shall be.
The Beast once was(implying a fixed past) is not and yet is for those whose names are not written in the book of life.
So is the book of life fixed? or is it not?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2016 5:00 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Tangle, posted 01-04-2016 5:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 225 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2016 5:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 221 of 478 (775752)
01-04-2016 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by kbertsche
01-03-2016 11:20 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
kbertsche writes:
Yes, I believe that for God, everything is "now".
Can't you conceive of God existing "outside" of time, in a higher dimension, so that He can look down and see all time spread out before Him? This is outside of our experience, of course, but it is analogous to our ability to look down at a Flatland world and see the whole thing at once, whereas a Flatland creature is bound in two dimensions. Analogously, we are bound in the time dimension but God is not.
Actually, 3 dimensional creatures couldn't see the future any more than the flatlanders. I am not saying that God is bound by one time dimension. I am saying that God may be very good a predicting the future, but it does not mean that He has absolute knowledge of it.
kbertsche writes:
The only alternative that I can see is to propose that God is bound by time as we are. But this makes no sense. How can the creator be bound by His creation?
He us not bound by His creation but if He by choice or necessity had to create a world where the future is truly open and unknown even to Him, then why should you suggest that He can't.
kbertsche writes:
The Holy Spirit was sent to convict people of sin and to lead us into all truth. The need for this is not affected by God knowing the entire future. Why would it be?
If God knows our entire life before we are born then it is fixed. It can't be changed and we would not have the free will to accept or reject Him, and it makes the Holy Spirit redundant. I am not restricting God to one dimension of time. I am saying that He relates to us uni-dimensionally.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by kbertsche, posted 01-03-2016 11:20 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by kbertsche, posted 01-04-2016 6:22 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 222 of 478 (775754)
01-04-2016 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
01-04-2016 1:45 AM


Re: Changing Ones Mind
Phat writes:
Keep in mind that what God sees is you doing a future action that you chose. You couldn't deviate from it without changing your mind at that moment. You already chose the action. And lets say God observed you at time-point 1.15. You then changed your mind at 1.16. What we would then have is God observing you at 1.17 or later. God observes us changing our minds quite often. He also observes us doing what we chose to do.(at any given point in time)
I get all of that but it does not negate the fact that all of our life choices, no matter how many times we change our mind are fixed before we are even born.
God is all knowing of what is knowable but the point is that scripturally and reasonably He has created a world, by choice, where the future is open and unknown even to lHim.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 1:45 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 223 of 478 (775755)
01-04-2016 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
01-04-2016 5:22 PM


Re: Reality Is Predetermined
Doesn't your God answer prayers and therefore intervene in earthly matters?
If so, he influences future events.
Prescience is voyeuristic, but your god is an actor controlling or at least as a minimum, participating in events. He's part of the script. But who wrote the script?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 5:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 224 of 478 (775756)
01-04-2016 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Aussie
01-04-2016 8:45 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Aussie writes:
You are fortunate in that you questioned it at an early age. I am the son of a preacher and was steeped in it from infancy. I even preached it for years before the unanswerable questions became too many. Reading the Bible back nowadays fills me with constant wonder that I could have fallen for such barbarism. The merciless brutality of the cross when He could have chosen to...forgive. Jesus "Paying the price" is not forgiveness. It's paying the freaking sky-high price!
What are we teaching our kids? That when they are wronged in the schoolyard or playground that the should forgive ONLY after extracting a heinous penalty from the wrongdoer? Or some other innocent kid who had nothing to do with the incident? That's not what forgiveness means.
It's just absurd.
I agree and if I felt that Christianity in that light I would reject it as well. If I beleived that God was genocidal and cruel when it suited him then I might possibly still believe that He was God but I wouldn't worship Him. It isn't fundamentalism or nothing.
As far as the Cross is concerned it was people that crucified Him and it was God that resurrected Him.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 8:45 AM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 6:26 PM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 225 of 478 (775758)
01-04-2016 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
01-04-2016 5:22 PM


Re: Reality Is Predetermined
quote:
So is it inevitable? Is it "fixed" as you say? I would say that reality is inevitable. What happens at this moment in time happens irrevocably. The same happens at a set point in the future. The question, then...in regards to God...is whether by foreknowing everything that must happen He removes our free will.
No, that isn't the question. The question is what is Gods role in shaping that fixed future. To what degree can God anticipate the consequences of His actions? The Christian God does not simply observe a universe not of his making. According to Christianity of any stripe God has had an important role in the shaping of our universe and in human history.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 5:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024