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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 226 of 478 (775759)
01-04-2016 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Faith
01-04-2016 9:24 AM


Faith writes:
And what that means is to spread the truth about who God is and ultimately bring salvation to the whole world. That's what the blessing is.
Presumably then the whole world includes Muslims. However I agree that salvation isn't about you or I going to heaven but it is about the renewal of all things.
Faith writes:
I don't know what attempting to control God means, but the Jews still make it all about them, about the land of Israel and wisdom they feel called to spread to the world, which of course doesn't include Jesus the Messiah whom they deny.
They, along with many people now, try to control God by following laws or practices in order that He will respond positively. It is like those today who claim that by believing the correct doctrine they get to live forever in a comfortable place, which essentially turns faith into a work.
GDR writes:
I think that as Christians we have the same lesson to learn. God is god of all and not just Christians. Christians aren't special.
Faith writes:
This is just weird. Christians are those who believe what God said, that makes us special. God is certainly God of all, there is only one God, and everybody should believe what He said. But only those who do believe Him are His in the special sense of being saved.
Presumably then, everyone who isn't saved by "belief" will be damned to hell. That isn't scriptural or Christian, and it makes God who brought all of creation into existence out to be small minded.
Faith writes:
This is extremely weird. All this is what is known as "Open Theism?" Another human distortion of God's will obviously. Salvation is the gift God gives to all who believe, but it doesn't stop there, "all about us" of all the nutty ideas, our job is to take that message to as many as we can so that they may believe too.
If Christianity is all about personal salvation then it is self focused plain and simple. Primarily our job is to be serveants to the world by reflecting God's love into it. If through that people come to know and acknowledge God's love in their lives then so much the better.
Faith writes:
Another really silly idea. The Creation stopped being good in the sense it was when created, when our first parents disobeyed God and brought themselves and the entire Creation under His curse. While we are certainly to be good stewards of the creation, our mission is to spread the good news of the gospel of salvation through the death of Christ, which pays for the sins that would otherwise have to be paid for by us in an eternity of Hell. Sure sounds like good news to me, whereas "serving the Creation" just sounds like some sort of sanctimonious stickysweet nonsense.
Those of us who grow up in Christian cultures sure get all the breaks eh? Is God the God of all or not. Just read the Gospels to see what they actually say.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 9:24 AM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 227 of 478 (775760)
01-04-2016 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
01-04-2016 2:51 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
Judging God to be evil is the greatest evil there could ever be. We are told God is good and believers believe it. You self-righteously judge Him.
It isn't Aussie and myself who are judging God to be evil, it's you Faith There is that bit in Matthew 12:31. "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." This was Jesus' response when the Pharisees accused Him this way in verse 14: " But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
The great sin is calling "evil" good or calling "good" evil. This is exactly what you are doing when you saying that God who is all good could commit acts of evil. Can you really say that genocide or public stoning for petty offences isn't evil?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 2:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 7:13 PM GDR has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 228 of 478 (775761)
01-04-2016 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by GDR
01-04-2016 5:29 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
PaulK writes:
We're not talking about guessing or probabilistic predictions here. We're talking about actual certain and complete knowledge of the future. Which is logically impossible unless the future is entirely fixed. How could it be otherwise?
GDR writes:
If God knows our entire life before we are born then it is fixed. It can't be changed and we would not have the free will to accept or reject Him, and it makes the Holy Spirit redundant.
You guys are saying the same thing, but I don't follow your logic. Please try to explain, as painstakingly and pedantically as possible, the logic that leads you to this conclusion.
We are talking about only knowledge here, specifically omniscience and prescience, not about determinism. KNOWLEDGE of what will happen does not DETERMINE or FIX what will happen. Knowledge alone is simply passive, imagining God as an observer. (Yes, God is much more than just an observer, but these other aspects of God are not addressed by the terms "omniscience" or "prescience".)
From our perspective, the future is "fixed" only after we live it and "fix" it. But a God who is not bound by time can see into the future and know perfectly what we will do even before we do it. Again, you could say that this makes it a-priori "fixed" in the mind of God, but it is WE living in history who do the "fixing". Divine prescience does not and cannot remove freedom or responsibility from us. What is so hard about this to grasp?
Imagine, if you will, a God who is not bound by time but can see (and travel) both backward and forward through it. This is somewhat like the "Back to the Future" movies, but much more complete. Like these movies, God is able to interact with humanity at all points of time. This doesn't abolish the personality and individuality of others any more than the movies did. But unlike the movies, God's knowledge is perfect and complete, so He doesn't cause the catastrophic problems that nearly happened in the movies. This is a poor analogy, of course, but it gives a hint of what may be going on.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by GDR, posted 01-04-2016 5:29 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2016 1:15 AM kbertsche has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 229 of 478 (775762)
01-04-2016 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by GDR
01-04-2016 5:40 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the Earth.
God had plans to torture and kill him long before there were people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by GDR, posted 01-04-2016 5:40 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by GDR, posted 01-04-2016 6:55 PM Aussie has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 230 of 478 (775764)
01-04-2016 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Aussie
01-04-2016 6:26 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Aussie writes:
Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the Earth.
God had plans to torture and kill him long before there were people.
That would be the fundamentalist take on it. I think the primary way to understand who Jesus was and how He fit into things is in John 1. Jesus perfectly embodied the Word and wisdom of God and the Word or Wisdom of God pre-dated the creation as it just always was. This does not mean that Jesus had memories of a time prior to His birth andy more than you or I do.
Jesus through prayer and His uderstanding of the Scriptures felt that he was called to go into Jerusalem as the Messiah and perform the actions that He did. He knew that by doing this He would upset virtually everyone with power. In those days when you did that, it would be unlikely that you would get out with your life. He went into Jerusalem as an act of faith believing that some how God would ultimately make it right. It was the choice of men committing an act of evil in the crucifixion that God responded to.
In resurrecting Jesus, God was making the statement that evil does not have the last word and that ultimately evil will lose.
I'd say that God always had a plan to deal with the evil that exists in our world and that some how, along the lines of the Son of Man coming to the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7 He has given Jesus authority and established His eternal Kingdom. That does not mean that God pre-planned a specific act of the evil that the crucifixion was.
As we see in numerous places in the Bible God responds to the actions of men good and bad. I suggest that this is the unique instance where God has fully responded to evil in the manner that He will deal with evil at the end of time whenever that is.
Paul puts it this way in Ephesians 1. "9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ."
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 6:26 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2016 10:13 AM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 231 of 478 (775765)
01-04-2016 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by GDR
01-04-2016 6:21 PM


Re: misrepresentation
The great sin is calling "evil" good or calling "good" evil.
Which is exactly what you and Aussie and so many others here do, as I've said over and over. God defines what is good and what is evil; you don't.
This is exactly what you are doing when you saying that God who is all good could commit acts of evil. Can you really say that genocide or public stoning for petty offences isn't evil?
How many times do I have to say it? It's not genocide, it's justice, punishment for sin. I already explained why picking up firewood on the Sabbath isn't a "petty offense" but a serious offense worthy of death.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by GDR, posted 01-04-2016 6:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by GDR, posted 01-04-2016 7:41 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 239 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2016 9:30 AM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 232 of 478 (775768)
01-04-2016 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Faith
01-04-2016 7:13 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
God defines what is good and what is evil; you don't.
What about Jesus then. He preached very strongly against this kind of behaviour, to the point of saying that even with the brutal treatment they were receiving from their Roman occupiers that they were to respond in love, turn the other cheek and go the extra mile. You read the Bible as being inerrant at the expense of what Jesus taught.
Faith writes:
How many times do I have to say it? It's not genocide, it's justice, punishment for sin.
So your idea of God's justice is to kill innocent babies. Whether you like it or not you are calling evil good.
If you actually believe that then, why would you want to worship a god like that. It sounds like that no matter what God's nature is you're prepared to worship Him. That it brings it back to the idea of getting God on your side and your version of Christianity is all about you, which is the exact opposite of the Jesus of the Bible.
Faith writes:
I already explained why picking up firewood on the Sabbath isn't a "petty offense" but a serious offense worthy of death.
Yes, which just goes to show that it you will justify anything to make it consistent with your non-scriptural way of understanding the Bible.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 7:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 233 of 478 (775791)
01-05-2016 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by kbertsche
01-04-2016 6:22 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
quote:
We are talking about only knowledge here, specifically omniscience and prescience, not about determinism. KNOWLEDGE of what will happen does not DETERMINE or FIX what will happen. Knowledge alone is simply passive, imagining God as an observer. (Yes, God is much more than just an observer, but these other aspects of God are not addressed by the terms "omniscience" or "prescience".)
Perhaps you are are misunderstanding the point. I am not saying that foreknowledge causes the future to be fixed. I am saying that a fixed future is a requirement for perfect foreknowledge.
God cannot with absolute certainty know what I will have for lunch today unless it is absolutely certain that I will eat that lunch today. And it must be absolutely certain now, before I have made my decision.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by kbertsche, posted 01-04-2016 6:22 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by kbertsche, posted 01-05-2016 1:30 AM PaulK has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 234 of 478 (775792)
01-05-2016 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by PaulK
01-05-2016 1:15 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
PaulK writes:
Perhaps you are are misunderstanding the point. I am not saying that foreknowledge causes the future to be fixed. I am saying that a fixed future is a requirement for perfect foreknowledge.
God cannot with absolute certainty know what I will have for lunch today unless it is absolutely certain that I will eat that lunch today. And it must be absolutely certain now, before I have made my decision.
Again, I can agree that the future is "fixed" in the mind of a God who transcends time. But for humans who do not transcend time, the future is not "fixed" until after we live it.
You say that "a fixed future is a requirement for perfect foreknowledge". I agree that for a human (or any other being who does not transcend time) this is true. But for a being who transcends time things become much more complicated.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2016 1:15 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2016 1:38 AM kbertsche has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 235 of 478 (775793)
01-05-2016 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by kbertsche
01-05-2016 1:30 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
No, the complications come from other matters (such as Gods actions within time).
From our perspective the future is not fixed. From your Gods perspective it must be, or He cannot have certain knowledge of the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by kbertsche, posted 01-05-2016 1:30 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by kbertsche, posted 01-05-2016 7:35 AM PaulK has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 236 of 478 (775798)
01-05-2016 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by PaulK
01-05-2016 1:38 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
PaulK writes:
From our perspective the future is not fixed. From your Gods perspective it must be, or He cannot have certain knowledge of the future.
I suppose I can agree with this. From our perspective, the future is not fixed and we have freedom to decide our own actions. From God's perspective, the future is "fixed" by our future actions.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2016 1:38 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2016 8:01 AM kbertsche has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 237 of 478 (775801)
01-05-2016 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by kbertsche
01-05-2016 7:35 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
Which brings us to the second - and far more important - point from my post.
Second, when it is considered that God supposedly created everything and intervenes within time It necessarily follows that God has a major hand in dictating the future. And if you also grant that God has perfect knowledge of the consequences of His actions, and can use that knowledge in deciding His actions then it follows that God has dictated everything that occurs. But if you do not grant it aren't you the one limiting God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by kbertsche, posted 01-05-2016 7:35 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by kbertsche, posted 01-05-2016 11:54 AM PaulK has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 238 of 478 (775804)
01-05-2016 9:08 AM


Moderator Request
Some recent posts have been very declarative with no supporting argument or evidence. Examples of evidence might be quotes from the Bible or from famous religious writers or historians like Augustine or Josephus.
Ideally each post will be composed originally on the spot, but anyone who sincerely believes a point has already been covered in a previous post, and who after rereading their old post believes it fits the current context and directly addresses the issue, may link to the message and cut-n-paste quotes from it.
Responses along the lines of, "I already explained that," are discouraged.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 239 of 478 (775808)
01-05-2016 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Faith
01-04-2016 7:13 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Hi Faith,
I understand that this was made to GDR not me, but I'd like to comment here too.
God defines what is good and what is evil; you don't.
You are intelligent Faith, I know this from reading thousands of your posts. But I can't help but feel you are hiding under a thick blanket of self-imposed willful ignorance here. Please understand, I am not being disrespectful. But when your morality is reduced to mandatory approval of the behavior of a blood-thirsty deity written in a brutal book, your own moral compass stops indicating correctly.
Please note again, you are publicly approving the slaughter of babies and children because of their parents' religion.
I already explained why picking up firewood on the Sabbath isn't a "petty offense" but a serious offense worthy of death.
Do you see you are defending a brutal execution of a man who picked up sticks against a religious law? Do you understand this is what ISIS is currently doing in Syria? They also are committing brutal executions over what the rest of the World sees as "petty religious offenses," that they decry to be "Serious offenses worthy of death." Please read this carefully Faith: You called picking up sticks a serious offense worthy of death. Please think about this and try to understand how primitive your thinking is when it comes to your Holy Texts. Do you see how closely Moses and Joshua align with modern terrorism in Syria in their brutal observance of the law and killing of entire families in their homes because of religious differences. And you agree with them.
But I don't think you will allow yourself to consider this, and it saddens me. Remember, you are advocating the murder of children over religion.
Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 7:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 01-05-2016 10:21 AM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 240 of 478 (775809)
01-05-2016 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by GDR
01-04-2016 6:55 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Hi GDR,
First of all, you have quoted a couple of my favorite books of the Bible. I love the first three chapters of John, and I think the book of Ephesians is soaring literature that still moves me although I no longer believe.
I'm a little confused over your post though. You sound as if you are saying that the crucifixion was unplanned? I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you. I have never heard anyone say this.
John 3:14-15 says "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up."
Or Matt 16:21 " From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders chief priests and scribes, and be killed and raised the third day."
Again I'm sorry but I don't quite get what you are saying...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by GDR, posted 01-04-2016 6:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by GDR, posted 01-05-2016 2:22 PM Aussie has not replied

  
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