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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 241 of 478 (775810)
01-05-2016 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Aussie
01-05-2016 9:30 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Sorry, Aussie, you're very confused about good and evil.
Exodus 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Picking up firewood in itself is work, but it further implies that a fire is to be lit to do the work of cooking. Orthodox Jews today scrupulously avoid work on the Sabbath to an obsessional and unnecessary degree (won't flick a light switch), but that's how seriously they take it.
I answered this in [Msg=58] already
No, I am not advocating the murder of children. God doesn't commit murder, His own laws forbid it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2016 9:30 AM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Admin, posted 01-05-2016 10:49 AM Faith has replied
 Message 243 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2016 10:59 AM Faith has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 242 of 478 (775813)
01-05-2016 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
01-05-2016 10:21 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Admin in Message 238 writes:
Responses along the lines of, "I already explained that," are discouraged.
Faith writes:
I answered this in [Msg=58] already
A mere three messages after I caution participants about replying like this, you reply like this?
If you'd like to remain a participant at EvC Forum for the next month, please follow moderator requests.
Please, no replies to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 01-05-2016 10:21 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 01-05-2016 1:55 PM Admin has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 243 of 478 (775814)
01-05-2016 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
01-05-2016 10:21 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith,
Picking up firewood in itself is work, but it further implies that a fire is to be lit to do the work of cooking. Orthodox Jews today scrupulously avoid work on the Sabbath to an obsessional and unnecessary degree (won't flick a light switch), but that's how seriously they take it.
Do you think that the penalty for picking up sticks, or lighting a fire, or cooking a meal should be death? Does it matter how seriously any religion takes any of it's own laws? What about modern Orthodox Jews? Do you really think they stage executions for breaking the Sabbath? They don't take it that seriously, why should you pretend to?
No, I am not advocating the murder of children. God doesn't commit murder, His own laws forbid it.
1 Sam 15:3 "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
This is one of several specific references to God commanding the killing of children and infants. He commanded the slaughter of infants Faith. And because your brain forces you to accept that God is good all the time, you are left with no option but to say that in this case the slaughter of infants is good.
This is easy then. If you don't advocate the murder of children will you please renounce the commandment in that verse. Will you please tell us all that was a vile and brutal command that should not have been obeyed. This is easy for most of us... I despise and renounce that commandment as evil.
But you aren't going to do that because your moral compass has been broken by your primitive religion. I bet you won't renounce it.
Edited by Aussie, : Grammar correction...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 01-05-2016 10:21 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 01-05-2016 2:26 PM Aussie has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 244 of 478 (775817)
01-05-2016 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by PaulK
01-05-2016 8:01 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
PaulK writes:
Which brings us to the second - and far more important - point from my post.
Second, when it is considered that God supposedly created everything and intervenes within time It necessarily follows that God has a major hand in dictating the future. And if you also grant that God has perfect knowledge of the consequences of His actions, and can use that knowledge in deciding His actions then it follows that God has dictated everything that occurs. But if you do not grant it aren't you the one limiting God?
So long as free moral agents other than God exist in the universe, I don't see how it follows that "God has dictated everything that occurs". Perhaps "scripted", but not "dictated".

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2016 8:01 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 01-05-2016 12:05 PM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 246 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2016 12:29 PM kbertsche has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 245 of 478 (775818)
01-05-2016 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by kbertsche
01-05-2016 11:54 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
kbertsche writes:
Perhaps "scripted", but not "dictated".
So God is the screenwriter of a movie with no director?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by kbertsche, posted 01-05-2016 11:54 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 246 of 478 (775821)
01-05-2016 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by kbertsche
01-05-2016 11:54 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
quote:
So long as free moral agents other than God exist in the universe, I don't see how it follows that "God has dictated everything that occurs". Perhaps "scripted", but not "dictated".
What's the difference? It isn't that the script allows ad-libs or that it is knowingly followed. If you want to say that the outcome is controlled by hidden manipulation rather than direc command I'd agree, but that still seems to be better described as being dictated rather than scripted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by kbertsche, posted 01-05-2016 11:54 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by kbertsche, posted 01-05-2016 2:00 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 247 of 478 (775828)
01-05-2016 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Admin
01-05-2016 10:49 AM


Re: misrepresentation
I know you don't want a reply to this but I have to take the risk to tell you that I thought I was complying with your caution. I gave scripture for my answer first, then I said I'd answered already in a particular message, which I linked so it could be read, because I thought that was what you asked for. Sorry if I misread you but I did think I was complying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Admin, posted 01-05-2016 10:49 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Admin, posted 01-06-2016 8:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 248 of 478 (775829)
01-05-2016 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by PaulK
01-05-2016 12:29 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
PaulK writes:
What's the difference? It isn't that the script allows ad-libs or that it is knowingly followed. If you want to say that the outcome is controlled by hidden manipulation rather than direc command I'd agree, but that still seems to be better described as being dictated rather than scripted.
To me, the word "dictated" implies determinism and causation. But the biblical God is not the author of evil; it's not correct to say that He "dictated" evil. He forsaw evil and directed His "script" around it and in spite of it, but He did not "dictate" the evil.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2016 12:29 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2016 2:14 PM kbertsche has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 249 of 478 (775830)
01-05-2016 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by kbertsche
01-05-2016 2:00 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
quote:
To me, the word "dictated" implies determinism and causation
If everything that occurs necessarily follows from Gods actions - actions taken knowing those consequences, and with a huge range of alternatives available - then that would seem to fit well enough. And that is the situation we are discussing.
quote:
But the biblical God is not the author of evil; it's not correct to say that He "dictated" evil. He forsaw evil and directed His "script" around it and in spite of it, but He did not "dictate" the evil.
But the evil is - in your words - "scripted" too, and the obviously the creator of the script is the author.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by kbertsche, posted 01-05-2016 2:00 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by kbertsche, posted 01-05-2016 3:47 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 250 of 478 (775831)
01-05-2016 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Aussie
01-05-2016 10:13 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Aussie writes:
First of all, you have quoted a couple of my favorite books of the Bible. I love the first three chapters of John, and I think the book of Ephesians is soaring literature that still moves me although I no longer believe.
I'm a little confused over your post though. You sound as if you are saying that the crucifixion was unplanned? I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you. I have never heard anyone say this.
John 3:14-15 says "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up."
Or Matt 16:21 " From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders chief priests and scribes, and be killed and raised the third day."
Again I'm sorry but I don't quite get what you are saying...
Hi Aussi
Paul writes this i 1 Cor 15: "4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."
If you notice he says according to the scriptures. There are a number of occasions in the Jewish Scriptures where the period 3 days is used including Jonah in the whale.
When Jesus uses the term "Son of Man" He is inevitably referring back to Daniel 7 where one like a "Son of Man' is raised up to the "Ancient of Days" and given dominion over all.
I contend that it is pretty clear that Jesus, through the scriptures, through knowledge of the politics of the time and through prayer believed on faith that He was to go into Jerusalem knowing that when He did that He would upset everyone and in all likelihood be put to death. He further believed that He would be raised up to the "Ancient of Days or God the Father" as per Daniel 7. This would establish the Kingdom, (the Good News is far more about God's Kingdom be established with Jesus as Lord than it is about personal salvation), again as per Daniel 7.
Jesus did what He did as an act of faith based on prayer and the Scriptures when He did what He did. I doubt that He had the resurrection as it ultimately played out in mind when He said what He did.
Genesis tells us that God gave humans the mandate to look after the world and its inhabitants. God works through the hearts and minds of humans. Even when He returned to Hid people He did it through the man Jesus.
I contend that God responded to the crucifixion as the ultimate evil of which death plays a big part, and that Jesus went into Jerusalem with the knowledge of what was almost certain to happen to Him when He did.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2016 10:13 AM Aussie has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 251 of 478 (775832)
01-05-2016 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Aussie
01-05-2016 10:59 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Picking up firewood in itself is work, but it further implies that a fire is to be lit to do the work of cooking. Orthodox Jews today scrupulously avoid work on the Sabbath to an obsessional and unnecessary degree (won't flick a light switch), but that's how seriously they take it.
Do you think that the penalty for picking up sticks, or lighting a fire, or cooking a meal should be death?
Aussie, it doesn't matter what I think. Early on I was often shocked at things in the Bible, but to me the Bible is God's inspired word and my job is to learn what HE considers to be a reasonable penalty. From there I can read commentaries or come to my own understanding of why He sees it as He does, why HE sees it as that important.* All that is my job based on regarding the Bible as the inerrant word of God. If that's what it is, we do not judge God, He judges us. Period. You keep appealing to your own offended feelings as the higher standard, and excoriating me for failing to share them. It is you who need to think this through again. God is the judge, we aren't.
Does it matter how seriously any religion takes any of it's own laws?
Your language continually betrays your refusal or inability to recognize the Bible as God's word and God as the judge. It certainly matters how seriously GOD HIMSELF takes HIS OWN laws. Christianity is not just another religion, it is the God-inspired truth.
What about modern Orthodox Jews? Do you really think they stage executions for breaking the Sabbath? They don't take it that seriously, why should you pretend to?
It would help a great deal if you understood all this in context, which you should be able to if you had any kind of decent instruction in theology. Most of those laws were written for the ancient NATION of Israel, not for modern Jews who are no longer part of that nation. They take it seriously enough to take obedience to an obsessive level. They weren't very faithful when it came to obeying God's laws back then anyway.
And being a Christian I'm freed from all those laws through Christ since their true spiritual meaning is now the point (We are to rest in Christ and do nothing for Him in our own flesh but through the Holy Spirit), so my taking it seriously is not through obedience of the literal law but through recognizing how God understands the importance of His laws, the seriousness of sin and so on. This is standard Christian theology.
No, I am not advocating the murder of children. God doesn't commit murder, His own laws forbid it.
1 Sam 15:3 "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
This is one of several specific references to God commanding the killing of children and infants. He commanded the slaughter of infants Faith. And because your brain forces you to accept that God is good all the time, you are left with no option but to say that in this case the slaughter of infants is good.
Yes, I have to assume that. The Amalekites had treacherously dealt with Israel; their punishement needed to be severe. And for the umpteenth time, THIS IS GOD'S JUDGMENT ON SIN, IT IS NOT MURDER.
The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away; blessed be the name of the Lord.
This is easy then. If you don't advocate the murder of children will you please renounce the commandment in that verse. Will you please tell us all that was a vile and brutal command that should not have been obeyed. This is easy for most of us... I despise and renounce that commandment as evil.
Aussie, please get the point: God's judgments for sin are not murder.
But you aren't going to do that because your moral compass has been broken by your primitive religion. I bet you won't renounce it.
Of course I won't renounce it; it's God's own word. I wish you would get that you are trusting in your own very limited mind over God who knows what is important and necessary. That's what needs to be renounced here.
-----------------
*Abe: So from the fact that the death penalty is the decreed punishment for work on the Sabbath what we should learn is that the purity of the Sabbath is extremely important in God's redemptive plan. You can't just come along and call it trivial when God has attached such importance to it. We are to learn why it is so important so that we can respond to it properly.
Same with the killing of a whole tribe including all their animals. I confess I don't know all the reasoning for these commands, I need to read up on them, but just from the fact of the command it isn't hard to determine that God sometimes considers it essential for His work through the Israelites that these enemies not be allowed to survive at all. You, believing none of it anyway, have no way of judging these things rightly.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : Add last two paragraphs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2016 10:59 AM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2016 4:52 PM Faith has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 252 of 478 (775835)
01-05-2016 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by PaulK
01-05-2016 2:14 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
PaulK writes:
If everything that occurs necessarily follows from Gods actions - actions taken knowing those consequences, and with a huge range of alternatives available - then that would seem to fit well enough. And that is the situation we are discussing.
This may be the issue that you are interested in discussing at the moment. But the original issue that I engaged with GDR was different and more fundamental. The original issue was whether or not God knows the future perfectly, whether or not divine omniscience (specifically prescience) conflicts with man's free will.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2016 2:14 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2016 4:01 PM kbertsche has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 253 of 478 (775836)
01-05-2016 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by kbertsche
01-05-2016 3:47 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
quote:
This may be the issue that you are interested in discussing at the moment.
It is the issue that we are discussing - or were since you seem to have decided to run away.
Obviously I have posed a problem that you cannot answer to your satisfaction.
It is interesting that Christian apologists so often need to paint their God as an uninvolved observer of the universe instead of a creator who actively intervenes in His creation. If that's the sort of God you believe in why not be a Deist ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by kbertsche, posted 01-05-2016 3:47 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by kbertsche, posted 01-05-2016 4:38 PM PaulK has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 254 of 478 (775839)
01-05-2016 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by PaulK
01-05-2016 4:01 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
Sorry, but I'm not interested in discussing other topics or going down rabbit trails until we have finished discussing the original issue (prescience vs free will).

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2016 4:01 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 255 of 478 (775840)
01-05-2016 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Faith
01-05-2016 2:26 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Hi Faith,
For better or worse I'm going to leave off this line of argument. Not because I feel you have made any valid points, I would readily admit it if I thought you had made a great case. It has more to do with the frustration I have seen with many other participants as they try desperately, in many different ways, to get you to come to terms with reality. I don't know why I expected anything different with me; perhaps I should have known all along.
Your language continually betrays your refusal or inability to recognize the Bible as God's word and God as the judge. It certainly matters how seriously GOD HIMSELF takes HIS OWN laws. Christianity is not just another religion, it is the God-inspired truth.
I'm not trying to be subtle here, Faith. I have explicitly rejected the authority of Scripture as the revealed Word of God in the same way I have rejected the Quran as the revealed word of God, or any supposed holy text of any religion as the word of it's particular deity. Your holy text is as important to you as the Quran is to any sincere Mulsim. But back to my pet peeve with you...
When I asked you to renounce the evils of child and infant slaughter your reply was
Of course I won't renounce it; it's God's own word. I wish you would get that you are trusting in your own very limited mind over God who knows what is important and necessary. That's what needs to be renounced here.
The moral bankruptcy that your primitive religion drives otherwise good people to is astounding; Faith! You are defending the killing of babies! You have no moral authority at all, don't presume to tell those of us who tend to look down on the slaughter of babies what is right and wrong. Your moral compass is broken...so broken you find yourself publicly supporting the killing of babies! I'm sorry I am beating this to death, Faith, but my mind is boggled. There is no logical argument one can formulate against someone who is arguing for the slaughter of infants, and calling it "Justice." Part of you has been broken Faith, and you can't see it.
Admin... I apologize if this is too strong. Faith you are a good person, I don't mean to attack you personally. But I despise your haunted religious prison and the scary places it makes you plant your flag.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 01-05-2016 2:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 01-05-2016 5:11 PM Aussie has replied
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 01-06-2016 2:53 AM Aussie has replied

  
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