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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 4621 of 5179 (775908)
01-06-2016 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 4620 by Diomedes
01-06-2016 3:02 PM


I was watching BBC news yesterday and they were interviewing a couple of gun shop owners out of Tennessee. Interestingly, they were actually very much in favor of Obama's assertions because they indicated it would likely increase business for them and reduce the likelihood of guns being transferred between parties through the back channels.
I was listening to NPR last night and an Alabama Congressman claimed that no gun shop owner had ever expressed such an opinion to him. He also claimed that some of the reasonable proposals regarding improving mental health never get off the ground because democrats won't cooperate with republicans. These guys set the agenda in both houses and don't need a single democrat in the House to go along with anything.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 4622 of 5179 (775909)
01-06-2016 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 4613 by LamarkNewAge
01-05-2016 9:31 PM


Re: Why dont we just ban rifles and get it over with.
I blame the suicides and mass shootings (as well as the post 1980/1990s obesity epidemic among the poor) on prescription psychotropic drugs and many other factors. I just started a thread on SSRIs and their effect but that is just the tip of the iceberg.
My biggest objection to "gun control" is that it includes the issue of forcing children on psychotropic drugs.
You are by far the most interesting new poster here. I hope you stay.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4613 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-05-2016 9:31 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4624 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-06-2016 3:33 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 4623 of 5179 (775910)
01-06-2016 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 4619 by Percy
01-06-2016 1:54 PM


Lets hear from somebody objective Percy.
The NRA crowd hates Richard Feldman.
Lets hear what he has to say. This is a USA today counter opinion to the typical salivatory commentary on anything gun-control.
Gun ‘actions’ prove superficial: Opposing view
quote:
President Obama’s New Executive Actions to Reduce Gun Violence sound pretty good on a superficial reading, and some may indeed be helpful.
For example, keep guns out of the wrong hands. Well, gee whiz who wants them in the wrong hands? Certainly not legitimate gun owners.
....
What are the troublesome proposals? Well, is it really necessary to become a federally licensed gun dealer for the occasional sale of a couple of guns? I’ve sold guns to friends, my police chief and a couple of relatives during the past 10 years. Should I have to obtain a license? Where is the president’s proposal to reduce the theft of 500,000 guns a year? Maybe he forgot about the biggest source of crime guns: Criminals steal them!
....
Proposing an extra $500 million for mental health care is a great idea, but surely the president knew our mental health system was broken back in his first term. What troubles me is having federal officials remove unnecessary legal barriers that prevent states from reporting on people’s mental health. If we want people to seek counseling, we had better protect doctor-patient confidentiality. Otherwise, who would seek help?
MORE from link
Feldman worked with Clinton in the 1990s (they had a rose garden signing ceremony in 97, I think)
EDIT he wasn't in the rose garden it seems. Here is info on Feldman, so people can judge if he is "objective" on the issue.
'Ricochet' Goes Behind Scenes of Gun Lobby : NPR
quote:
Former gun lobbyist and National Rifle Association (NRA) insider Richard Feldman explains how he came to believe that the NRA is as he writes a "cynical, mercenary political cult."
Feldman's new book, Ricochet: Confessions of a Gun Lobbyist, sheds light on the inside workings of America's powerful gun lobby.
Feldman writes that the NRA is "obsessed with wielding power while relentlessly squeezing contributions from its members, objectives that overshadow protecting Constitutional liberties."
MUCH MORE IN LINK
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4619 by Percy, posted 01-06-2016 1:54 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4634 by NoNukes, posted 01-07-2016 6:40 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 4624 of 5179 (775911)
01-06-2016 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4622 by NoNukes
01-06-2016 3:28 PM


Thanks.
I consider most individuals here more informed than me btw.
I express opinions to raise issues, not because I think I know more than anybody.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4622 by NoNukes, posted 01-06-2016 3:28 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 4625 of 5179 (775913)
01-06-2016 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 4615 by Straggler
01-06-2016 2:49 AM


Straggler
quote:
How did you expect that to be answered other than in terms of an estimate based on the available data?
It seems like your premise that 10,000 to 14,000 lives would/could be saved, if guns were 100% gone in the USA, might be correct.
I don't know for sure.
But, again, a complete (or anywhere near) gun ban is not on the agenda of anybody so far as I know.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4615 by Straggler, posted 01-06-2016 2:49 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4626 by Straggler, posted 01-06-2016 3:43 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(5)
Message 4626 of 5179 (775914)
01-06-2016 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 4625 by LamarkNewAge
01-06-2016 3:37 PM


Re: Straggler
I know that isnt on the political agenda but that was the question you specifically put forward. If you had asked a different question I would have given a different answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4625 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-06-2016 3:37 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4627 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-06-2016 3:53 PM Straggler has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 4627 of 5179 (775915)
01-06-2016 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 4626 by Straggler
01-06-2016 3:43 PM


Re: Straggler
If you had asked a different question I would have given a different answer.
The frustrated cry of every reasonable person ever on these forums.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4626 by Straggler, posted 01-06-2016 3:43 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


(1)
Message 4628 of 5179 (775916)
01-06-2016 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4627 by Dr Adequate
01-06-2016 3:53 PM


Re: Straggler
Well, I must admit that I appreciate the great service I get here.
"Ask and you shall receive" is a pretty good deal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4627 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-06-2016 3:53 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4629 of 5179 (775945)
01-07-2016 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 4620 by Diomedes
01-06-2016 3:02 PM


Not only is it likely, it's happening right now. Gun sales have spiked dramatically because there is a fear that Obama will use recent tragedies to change laws. Really this demonstrates what I've long said, which is that if curbing gun violence is the end game, then this is the worst way to go about it, since it will increase bloodshed. It will drive a wedge between government officials and an already paranoid public. I think as Obama transitions out of office, he will push for his most bold legislation to date to cement his legacy.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 4632 by Percy, posted 01-07-2016 8:12 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 4630 of 5179 (775953)
01-07-2016 4:41 AM


Awfully silent here about Obama's Executive Order

- xongsmith, 5.7d

Replies to this message:
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 Message 4645 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-08-2016 6:35 AM xongsmith has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 4631 of 5179 (775954)
01-07-2016 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 4630 by xongsmith
01-07-2016 4:41 AM


Yeh, really radical stuff. Someone will have to shoot him now.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4630 by xongsmith, posted 01-07-2016 4:41 AM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 4632 of 5179 (775959)
01-07-2016 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 4629 by Hyroglyphx
01-07-2016 12:21 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:
Really this demonstrates what I've long said, which is that if curbing gun violence is the end game, then this is the worst way to go about it,...
Which way is the worst way? Improved background checks? Record keeping? Mental health? Gun safety technology? Some of them? All of them?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4629 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-07-2016 12:21 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 4644 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-08-2016 4:56 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(3)
Message 4633 of 5179 (775961)
01-07-2016 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 4632 by Percy
01-07-2016 8:12 AM


Percy writes:
Which way is the worst way? Improved background checks? Record keeping? Mental health? Gun safety technology? Some of them? All of them?
Any way that contradicts the notion that among all our rights, gun ownership is uniquely absolute, is unacceptable, especiallly if Obama does it. The explicit link to shootings is particularly distasteful to them: the gun camp has already made it clear that great steaming piles of kids' bodies are irrelevant to a well-regulated militia.
Speaker Paul Ryan supported closing background check loopholes--until Obama did some of just that with executive power. Of note, his actions accord with the GOP mantra: just enforce existing laws. Congress is just too busy working to take health care away from tens of millions of people...well, too busy making symbolic gestures with DOA legislation, anyway.
We have recent legislation in New York, the SAFE Act, that still has folks in an uproar. The only material change for gun owners requires the registration of assault-style weapons and a limitation on magazine size. They can still buy any gun they could buy before, but they're still riled about those magazines.
How you gonna light up a first grade classroom with only a 10-round clip? And you definitely can't repel the First Infantry Division without a big clip.
As I've said before, the gun absolutists will create the social and political momentum that leads to the death of the 2nd Amendment. Then they'll blame everyone else.
Nicholas Kristof summarized the effectiveness of reasonable gun regulation in a recent NYT column:
quote:
Gun advocates say criminals will always have guns, so regulations make no difference. But increasingly we have evidence that this is wrong.
The states with the most restrictive gun laws have the lowest gun death rates (including suicides). Take Massachusetts and New York, which have some of the tightest gun restrictions in America; they have three or four gun deaths per 100,000 inhabitants per year. At the other extreme, two of the states with the most permissive gun regulations are Alaska and Louisiana, and both have gun death rates about five times as high: more than 19 per 100,000 inhabitants.
Republican presidential candidates should look at the natural experiment that occurred when Missouri eased restrictions on buying handguns. The result was a 25 percent rise in the firearm homicide rate, according to a study in the Journal of Urban Health.
In contrast, Connecticut tightened regulations on buying handguns, and gun homicides there fell by 40 percent, according to the American Journal of Public Health.
The effectiveness of reasonable gun regulation has been proven; the bloodletting that follows their loosening has been proven. The Constitutionality of reasonable regulation has been established.
One side of the debate finds the facts (and the body counts) irrelevant; the other, growing side, looks at the facts and body counts and says enough is enough. When gun absolutists lose more than they ever thought possible, they'll have only themselves to blame.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4632 by Percy, posted 01-07-2016 8:12 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 4634 of 5179 (776028)
01-07-2016 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 4623 by LamarkNewAge
01-06-2016 3:28 PM


Re: Lets hear from somebody objective Percy.
What are the troublesome proposals? Well, is it really necessary to become a federally licensed gun dealer for the occasional sale of a couple of guns? I’ve sold guns to friends, my police chief and a couple of relatives during the past 10 years.
Questions like this are disingenuous. There is a world of difference between the guy who has sold a few guns in the past decade and a guy who buys and sells guns on a regular basis to make a profit, and no indication that Obama's proposal addresses anything but the latter. What is clear is that the current enforcement of the law lets a lot of gun traffickers avoid the law.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4623 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-06-2016 3:28 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 4635 of 5179 (776029)
01-07-2016 6:50 PM


Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4637 by Omnivorous, posted 01-07-2016 7:01 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

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