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Author Topic:   More on Diet and Carbohydrates
Percy
Member
Posts: 19960
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 188 of 243 (766286)
08-16-2015 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Faith
08-16-2015 8:53 AM


Re: On diets
Faith writes:

Potatoes with butter or gravy, breaded meats, also often with gravy, biscuits and gravy, deep fried thickly breaded chicken, Fettuccine Alfredo, Eggs Benedict, think of all that good stuff SOME people can eat without gaining weight. Sigh.

This is from the introduction to the The Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz:

quote:
I remember the day I stopped worrying about eating fat. It was long before I started porting over thousands of scientific studies and conducting hundreds of interviews to write this book. Like most Americans, I was following the low-fat advice set forth by the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) in its food pyramid, and when the Mediterranean diet was introduced int he 1990s, I added olive oil and extra servings of fish while cutting back further on red meat. In following these guidelines, I was convinced that I was doing the best I could for my heart and my waistline, since official sources have been telling us for years that the optimal diet emphasizes lean meats, fruits, vegetables, and grains and that the healthiest fats come from vegetable oils. Avoiding the saturated fats found in animal foods, especially, seemed like the most obvious measure a person could take for good health.

Then, around 2000, I moved to New York City and started writing a restaurant review column for a small paper. It didn't have a budget to pay for meals, so I usually ate whatever the chef decided to send out to me. Suddenly I was eating gigantic meals with foods that I would have never before allowed to pass my lips: pâté, beef of every cut prepared in every imaginable way, cream sauces, cream soups, foie gras—all the foods I had avoided my entire life.

Eating these rich, earthy dishes was a revelation. They were complex and remarkably satisfying. I ate with abandon. And yet, bizarrely, I found myself losing weight. In fact, I soon lost the 10 pounds that had dogged me for years, and my doctor told me that my cholesterol numbers were fine.


Of course, she was a younger person then. The same diet would likely not prove as effective for an older person.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Faith, posted 08-16-2015 8:53 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 08-16-2015 10:05 AM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19960
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 190 of 243 (766293)
08-16-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Faith
08-16-2015 10:05 AM


Re: On diets
Faith writes:

Why should aging make us fat?

If you're asking what are the physiological changes associated with aging that cause weight gain, I don't know. The tendency to lose muscle mass with increasing age is part of it, but I don't know why we lose muscle mass, though I know testosterone plays a role.

But if you're questioning whether people really tend to gain weight as they age, which I thought might be the case since you mentioned that aging didn't affect your parents in this way, then all I can say is that it doesn't happen to everyone. It's what happens to most people. I did see it mentioned somewhere that males tend to gain weight until around age 55, and that the problem lessens after that. But this isn't something I've investigated in any depth.

Should I blame the lousy USDA advice for my problems? I'd like to.

Some researchers think it possible that your dietary and weight history influences how diet and weight will affect you in the future. For example, if you gain 10 pounds and lose 10 pounds, you aren't any longer the same person you were before, because weight and diet changes influence your internal physiology.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 08-16-2015 10:05 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 08-16-2015 9:05 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19960
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 199 of 243 (769624)
09-23-2015 12:23 PM


Fat is Making a Comeback
Consumers Are Embracing Full-Fat Foods, says a New York Times headline. A few excerpts:

quote:
Public health authorities have long urged Americans to cut back on foods high in saturated fat like butter, meat and whole milk. But a new report on dietary-fat consumption suggests that the public is increasingly eating more, not less, of these foods.

The new report, which was published last week by the Credit Suisse Research Institute, found that sales of butter in the United States rose 14 percent last year and climbed another 6 percent in the first three months of 2015. Sales of whole milk rose 11 percent in the first half of this year, while skim milk purchases fell 14 percent. The report also predicted that consumption of red meat and eggs would climb in the coming years.
...
In recent years, a number of studies have cast doubt on the health benefits of the traditional low-fat diet, suggesting instead that eating more fat — with the exception of trans fats — and less sugar and refined carbohydrates might be better for overall health.
...
The trends identified in the new report suggest that Americans have not been embracing the advice on saturated fat long dispensed by the federal government and groups like the American Heart Association, which for decades have told Americans to cut it from their diets.


--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by ringo, posted 09-23-2015 12:39 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19960
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 206 of 243 (769718)
09-24-2015 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Faith
09-23-2015 3:43 PM


Re: trying to lose weight by cutting carbs
Faith writes:

The problem is that fat and carbohydrates together will put weight on you faster than either fat or carbs alone,...

There's a metabolic explanation that suggests this may be true. Carbohydrates contain glucose. The presence of glucose in the blood stream causes the pancreas to release insulin. Insulin causes glucose to be absorbed by muscle and fat tissue.

But insulin also causes fat in the bloodstream to be stored, so any meal that combines fat and carbohydrates will be even more fattening. I don't know if any studies have been done demonstrating that the same amounts of fat and carbohydrates are more fattening when combined in the same meals instead of portioned into separate meals, but anecdotal stories like yours are common (my experience is the same) and certainly suggest that it may be true.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Faith, posted 09-23-2015 3:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 09-24-2015 10:38 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 210 by petrophysics1, posted 09-29-2015 2:00 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19960
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 220 of 243 (772961)
11-21-2015 9:55 AM


Everyone Needs a Different Diet
It was already strongly suspected that different people respond differently to the same diet, but now scientific evidence is beginning to emerge. The Huffington Post reports There Really Is No 'One Size Fits All' Diet Plan, According To Study. Some excerpts:

quote:
What this means is that a healthy diet for one person may not be healthy for another person. Yet doctors all over the world tend to prescribe the same kinds of foods to people struggling with weight or health issues. Rather than recommend a cookie-cutter solution to weight problems, the researchers say, doctors could be more effective by recommending a personalized nutrition plan to a patient, based on the way that patient metabolizes certain foods.

"After seeing this data, I think about the possibility that maybe we're really conceptually wrong in our thinking about the obesity and diabetes epidemic,” Segal said in a statement. "The intuition of people is that we know how to treat these conditions, and it's just that people are not listening and are eating out of control -- but maybe people are actually compliant but in many cases we were giving them wrong advice."
...
What they found was that the participants all responded very differently to foods, even after meals in which participants were eating the same exact provided foods. In the video above, the researchers explain that sushi actually caused one man’s blood sugar to spike higher than ice cream did. For another participant who had struggled to lose weight on different diets all her life, the researchers found that eating a seemingly healthy food -- tomatoes -- spiked her blood sugar.


So there is no dietary advice that applies to everyone. One would think that some of the advice would apply to everyone, such as reduced intake of sugar, but probably even that should be questioned. Even if it were a tiny percentage that thrives on sugar, it still means the general advice to avoid sugar would be wrong.

We also need scientific research supporting the advice given by doctors and nutritionists. Today the advice to eat more vegetables and less meat is widely accepted as true and accurate, but even this very undetailed advice is unlikely to be true for everyone, and it just becomes more and more generally wrong as the advice becomes more specific. As the article tells us, a doctor who says, "Sure, tomatoes are fine" or "Sure, sushi is fine" is going to be dead wrong for at least some of his patients.

Unfortunately none of us are going to be at the center of scientific studies establishing our precise best diet. The reality is that we're all at the center of our own lifetime study of what's good for our health and what's not. Blood tests are a big help here. Try changing your diet significantly and see what happens to your blood tryglycerides, hemoglobin A1c, etc. For most people reducing carbohydrate intake, especially refined carbohydrates, will improve these measures considerably, but probably not for everyone. I'd gotten lazy about keeping my carbohydrate intake down over the past year, and my last blood test showed increased triglyceride levels and a worsened cholesterol/HDL ratio. Reducing carbohydrate intake is becoming standard advice these days and I'm back on track now, but this research tells us that everyone shouldn't just assume reducing their carbohydrate intake will work for them. Everyone has to figure out what works for them.

Link to study: Personalized Nutrition by Prediction of Glycemic Responses

--Percy


  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19960
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 221 of 243 (773314)
11-29-2015 2:29 PM


Once again, the evidence increasingly ponts to carbohydrates as the problem
David S. Ludwig, the director of the Obesity Prevention Center at Boston Children's hospital, writes in today's New York Times:

quote:
The Dietary Guidelines for Americans 2015, scheduled for release by the Department of Agriculture in the next few weeks,...should jettison the traditional emphasis on low-fat diets, which we now know have no special benefit for body weight or general health, and focus more on the quality of the carbohydrates we are eating.

From Could Your Healthy Diet Make Me Fat?

--Percy


  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19960
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 222 of 243 (775962)
01-07-2016 9:04 AM


2015 Dietary Guidelines Released
Hey, it's 2016 and the 2015 Dietary Guidelines for Americans are already available.

I'll pour through the whole thing later, but just looking at the Executive Summary, three nutrients are mentioned specifically, and it gets the recommendations for two out of three wrong . Under point 3 it recommends reducing intake of sugars, saturated fats and sodium, but evidence has been mounting for some time now that saturated fat is not harmful but is actually good for you, and more recent evidence shows that the body fights very hard to maintain what it believes are correct sodium levels and that reducing intake below a certain point can actually be harmful.

The advice to reduce sugars is correct, but somewhat alarmingly the Executive Summary doesn't mention carbohydrates. The webpage includes a search box, but it only returns six results for carbohydrates. It might be referring to sections since some of the search results include the term carbohydrates multiple times. Again, I'll read through the whole thing later and develop a better feel for its recommendations about carbohydrates.

Trans fats get only a brief single mention on this page (under point 1), even though the evidence that they are harmful is very strong.

Guess we'll have to wait for the 2020 recommendations to straighten things out.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by NoNukes, posted 01-07-2016 3:45 PM Percy has responded
 Message 225 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-08-2016 5:56 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19960
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 224 of 243 (776064)
01-08-2016 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by NoNukes
01-07-2016 3:45 PM


Re: 2015 Dietary Guidelines Released
NoNukes writes:

Can you point to some recent research that suggests that sodium intake levels below the 2300 mg level that are recommended is harmful? I don't doubt that there are problems with too low an intake.

I should have been more clear. I was only commenting on the figure the link I provided takes you to, Figure ES-1 of the Executive Summary, which doesn't mention amounts. Sorry. If you weren't looking at that figure my comments probably didn't make much sense when they referred to specific points.

I think the new guidelines will share the same systemic problem as the old one, that the bulk of the population will only hear or retain the top-level message, in this case to reduce saturated fats, sugars and salt. I think a better top-level message would have been to reduce carbohydrates, avoid processed foods, minimize sugars, and eliminate trans fats.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by NoNukes, posted 01-07-2016 3:45 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19960
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


(3)
Message 232 of 243 (776145)
01-09-2016 11:11 AM


I Read the 2015 Guidelines
I've read the 2015 Dietary Guidelines for Americans, and here is my review. The headings are links to sections, subsections, diagrams, etc., in the report. I of course only focus on those things of which I am critical. Also, the guidelines are very repetitive. I'll only comment on a particular advice the first time I encounter it.

Message from the Secretaries

quote:
Its recommendations are ultimately intended to help individuals improve and maintain overall health and reduce the risk of chronic disease.

By "chronic diseases" it means the diseases of western civilization: cancer, stroke, obesity and diabetes. Through the first half of the 20th century the belief formed that these diseases had increased in frequency in western-style economies due to changes in diet. The Dietary Guidelines for Americans, issued every five years since 1980 (Index to Past Guidelines), were a response to that threat.

quote:
Now more than ever, we recognize the importance of focusing not on individual nutrients or foods in isolation, but on everything we eat and drink.

Sounds good.

Executive Summary

quote:
The statute (Public Law 101-445, 7 U.S.C. 5341 et seq.) requires that the Dietary Guidelines be based on the preponderance of current scientific and medical knowledge.

Oh, well. They can claim they followed "current scientific and medical knowledge," but obviously their current advice is heavily influenced by their past advice, by old research, and by lobbying groups.

quote:
The 2015-2020 edition of the Dietary Guidelines builds from the 2010 edition with revisions based on the Scientific Report of the 2015 Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee and consideration of Federal agency and public comments.

At some future date I hope to read the Scientific Report and compare it to the guidelines, but we already know from news reports that they ignored some of the findings.

The Guidelines

quote:
  1. Limit calories from added sugars and saturated fats and reduce sodium intake. Consume an eating pattern low in added sugars, saturated fats, and sodium. Cut back on foods and beverages higher in these components to amounts that fit within healthy eating patterns.

Here's the first mention of reducing intake of saturated fats. A growing body of research indicates that the advice to avoid saturated fats could be misplaced and wrong. Saturated fats are very likely a healthy component of a normal diet, not essential, but one of a collection of healthy nutrient alternatives.

Key Recommendations

quote:
  • Fruits, especially whole fruits

This is good advice, but they need a caveat about moderation and fruit types because of fructose. This is just the Executive Summary, so it's fine that they don't get into such details here.

quote:
  • Grains, at least half of which are whole grains

On the surface this advice doesn't seem too bad, but a little analysis reveals that it is horrible. This is about carbohydrates. Refined grains are as bad as sugar and should be avoided. Most food labeled "whole grains" should also be avoided because the food industry has lobbied the FDA for weaker labeling so that they can place the "whole grain" label on foods that in reality contain refined grains. There are true whole grain foods out there, but they aren't easy to find, and few will be on mainline grocery store shelves.

quote:
  • Fat-free or low-fat dairy, including milk, yogurt, cheese, and/or fortified soy beverages

More horrible advice. Fat from natural sources is good for you, especially dairy fat. Eat regular milk, regular yogurt, regular cheese, etc. Forget soy beverages unless you like them or have a food allergy.

quote:
  • A variety of protein foods, including seafood, lean meats and poultry, eggs, legumes (beans and peas), and nuts, seeds, and soy products

This advice is very good, except for the part about lean meats. The emphasis on lean meats is driven by a desire to reduce saturated fat, which as I've said is likely good for you. Walking down the meat isle is to witness a tragedy, especially for beef, but it is also true of pork and chicken. The marbling once so desired and so common in even the finest meats has largely disappeared. Only the cheapest cuts have any significant fat marbling.

Research does indicate a connection between red meat and colorectal cancer, but a great deal of that research should be viewed skeptically because it is old and from the era when they thought fat was evil. The Cattle Association's lobbying should be viewed as skeptically as other food lobbies, but it is likely that red meat was painted with the same broad brush as all other food containing fat. Red meat is a rich source of protein, iron, B12 and other nutrients, and it needn't be avoided or limited.

One prudent advice I've seen is to avoid cooking red meat quickly over high heat. Evidently unhealthy chemicals can form at high heat. More gradual cooking is better.

The advice doesn't mention processed meats, but obviously avoid processed meats.

quote:
A healthy eating pattern limits:

  • Saturated fats and trans fats, added sugars, and sodium

Trans fats should be eliminated from all diets. They are known to be dangerous. They were developed from vegetable oils in the belief that anything derived from vegetables must be healthy, or at least not dangerous. This has proved untrue in the extreme.

The trans fat revolution began in the 1910's with the introduction of Crisco, and very quickly American cooking transitioned from cooking with animal fats to cooking with vegetable oils. From a health standpoint this was a critical mistake. The safest fats to cook with are animal fats, the next safest is olive oil, the next safest is palm oil. Olive oil and palm oil are both low in polyunsaturated fats, which turns out to be the dangerous component of vegetable oils.

quote:
  • Consume less than 10 percent of calories per day from saturated fats

Bad, bad advice. Ignore. See comments above.

quote:
  • Consume less than 2,300 milligrams (mg) per day of sodium

Don't go crazy, too much of anything is bad for you, but unless you have health problems related to salt or sodium you can safely ignore this advice.

Terms To Know (click on "more")

quote:
Nutrient dense—A characteristic of foods and beverages that provide vitamins, minerals, and other substances that contribute to adequate nutrient intakes or may have positive health effects, with little or no solid fats and added sugars, refined starches, and sodium. Ideally, these foods and beverages also are in forms that retain naturally occurring components, such as dietary fiber.

They only define three terms in this section. I'm surprised they didn't define the other terms they're using, such as sugars, starches and dietary fiber. Maybe they define them further on.

Figure ES-1. 2015-2020 Dietary Guidelines for Americans at a Glance

I already commented on this in Message 222.

Chapter 1: Key Elements of Healthy Eating Patterns

Key Recommendations: Components of Healthy Eating Patterns

quote:
The recommendation to limit intake of calories from saturated fats to less than 10 percent per day is a target based on evidence that replacing saturated fats with unsaturated fats is associated with reduced risk of cardiovascular disease.

This is very bad advice. Replacing saturated fats with unsaturated fats, particularly polyunsaturated fats, is dangerous to health.

The Science Behind Healthy Eating Patterns

quote:
The components of healthy eating patterns recommended in this edition of the Dietary Guidelines were developed by integrating findings from systematic reviews of scientific research,...

Obviously they have ignored the more recent research. Perhaps they could argue that they're just being conservative, but they should at least give people a fighting chance by mentioning the more recent research.

A Closer Look Inside Healthy Eating Patterns: Table 1-1

quote:
Note: The total eating pattern should not exceed Dietary Guidelines limits for intake of calories from added sugars and saturated fats and alcohol and should be within the Acceptable Macronutrient Distribution Ranges for calories from protein, carbohydrate, and total fats.

I think this is the first mention of carbohydrates in the guidelines, and it hasn't yet been defined. There's a Gossary of Terms in Appendix 6, and carbohydrates is defined there.

Carbohydrates are a complicated subject given refined versus unrefined, sugars, whole grain, fiber and starch (a type of carbohydrate). It's understandable that they want to avoid detail that might be confusing, but they at least should include advice to reduce intake of carbohydrates that aren't high in fiber.


I've consumed my available time for today and have to sign off.

--Percy


  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19960
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 234 of 243 (843218)
11-14-2018 8:12 PM


Not All Calories Are Equal
Gary Taubes has been claiming for years that the evidence already tells us that if you want to lose weight, eat less carbs and more fat. The calories from carbs are bad for you (because carbohydrates are sugar - they're responsible for the diseases of western civilization, which is Taubes' main message - his diet advice is ancillary and he gives it little attention), and the calories from most fats are not (including saturated fat - the dangerous fats are manufactured rather than grown, like the fat in Crisco and margarine). Because fat does not provoke an insulin response, it is less likely to encourage formation of adipose tissue (fat cells).

Taubes views have not found a warm reception, but today's New York Times reports on a new study showing the positive effect on weight of a low carb diet: How a Low-Carb Diet Might Help You Maintain a Healthy Weight. For equivalent calorie intake, a low carb diet increases the metabolic rate and causes an average daily increase of 250 calories burned.

Unfortunately it is still true that a low carb diet is boring. Goodbye pasta, bread, crackers, chips, cake and candy. Hello vegetables, meat, many fruits, nuts and eggs.

Link to paper: Effects of a low carbohydrate diet on energy expenditure during weight loss maintenance: randomized trial

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Phat, posted 11-14-2018 8:43 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19960
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 236 of 243 (843241)
11-15-2018 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Phat
11-14-2018 8:43 PM


Re: Two Doctors Speak Out
Do you track just your blood sugar, or also your ketone level?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Phat, posted 11-14-2018 8:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Phat, posted 11-15-2018 11:45 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
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