|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total) |
| |
popoi | |
Total: 916,387 Year: 3,644/9,624 Month: 515/974 Week: 128/276 Day: 2/23 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: God and Satan | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
im just using common sense. We have no evidence for any of this stuff.
Even with the scriptures you have quoted in the past, there is little common sense that God is "both good and evil" ie complete....that flies in the face of logic. A "good" God makes more sense. Good is the preferred state of affairs for humanity, and God meets and exceeds human awareness. Im aware that your argument is logical, but if we followed it strictly we would have no idea who or what GOD was and is...which kinda ruins the whole story.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But Phat, you continue making assertions that simply are refuted by the facts.
Phat writes: im just using common sense. We have no evidence for any of this stuff. But we do have evidence of what was actually written. In Milton's poem the angelic rebellion, loss and banishment to hell happens before man is even created. But the Bible shows Satan working actively for God as God's tester in both the Old and New Testament. It is never Satan in the Bible that does anything wrong. It is God that makes Pharaoh change his mind so that all the Egyptians get punished again. It is God that creates floods to wipe out all life. It is God that calls down fire and brimstone and that changes everyone's language so they can't communicate, it is God that keeps Moses from entering the promised land even after Moses does what God has asked for over 40 years.
Phat writes: Even with the scriptures you have quoted in the past, there is little common sense that God is "both good and evil" ie complete....that flies in the face of logic. But as I have shown you Phat, that is what all of the three Abrahamic religions have in their written texts. Whether it makes sense to you or not it is what the written record shows. In fact the whole meaning of the name Israel is "Struggles with humans and God and has overcome." Read Genesis 32 sometime; it really is important. But even there the God character tries to cheat to gain advantage yet fails.
quote: Phat writes: A "good" God makes more sense. Good is the preferred state of affairs for humanity, and God meets and exceeds human awareness. Why does it make more sense? Or do you mean that is what YOU want and so the God you create meets and exceeds YOUR needs and desires? Do you want a comfortable God? If so the neither the Abrahamic God or Jesus are reasonable choices; neither claims to make life easy.
Phat writes: Im aware that your argument is logical, but if we followed it strictly we would have no idea who or what GOD was and is...which kinda ruins the whole story. Do you mean it ruins what YOU want?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You contradict yourself. "Good" is defined in either human terms or in God's terms. You can't claim that "choosing" eternal torment is "good" for humanity.
Good is the preferred state of affairs for humanity, and God meets and exceeds human awareness.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I recently had an interesting conversation with an old friend of mine who studies Torah.(He is Jewish)
It surprised me to learn that he thinks a lot like you do, jar and tells me that he believes that God is a bit as Spinoza describes Him..Pantheistically...and he also says that there is logically not a personal God. If anything, he described God as a synthesis of infinity and zero. Odd that he would leave One out of the equation. My point is that any of the really deep thinkers whom I have talked to insist that IF God exists, the only evidence would be shown by our behavior as humans...regardless of what our beliefs were on the matter.
Do you mean it ruins what YOU want? In a sense, yes. I have to admit that.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: It surprised me to learn that he thinks a lot like you do, jar and tells me that he believes that God is a bit as Spinoza describes Him..Pantheistically...and he also says that there is logically not a personal God. If anything, he described God as a synthesis of infinity and zero. Remember that Jesus was a Jew; born, raised and died a Jew but was never a Christian. Also consider Alpha and Omega, "I am that I am" as well as 0 and ∞. But what do the actual writing show? What Gods are found in the writings as opposed to the Gods created by the snake-oil salesmen and propagandists?
Phat writes: My point is that any of the really deep thinkers whom I have talked to insist that IF God exists, the only evidence would be shown by our behavior as humans...regardless of what our beliefs were on the matter. And again, what does the evidence show? What do the writings show? What Gods have humans created over time? How many different Gods are described in the Bible? How do the God in Genesis 1, the God in Genesis 2&3, the God in Genesis 32, the God found in Exodus, the God found in Job and the God created by Luther and Knox and today's hucksters compare? How does the God you created compare to those others?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
How does the God you created compare to those others? Well, I argued that God is personal. He replied that a personal God is akin to Santa Claus. (Where have I heard that, before? ) My friend DID state that he still prays, though he acknowledges it as a probable placebo. I replied that prayer is for our benefit and not Gods, should God exist. Whether one prays to God or only to their own conscience really doesnt affect the outcome. After all, even if i believe that God exists, is personal, and hears all prayers why would He treat believers any differently? As for satan, satan is only as harmful as we make him out to be. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The prince is still in charge. So he has not been demoted from his job. In my conversation, I touched upon the idea that God prefers us to manage evil rather than exist without it for some mysterious reason. Its a bit like lifting weights...strength increases through overcoming resistance. Evil is the necessary resistance to strengthen human character.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Well, I argued that God is personal. The Old Testament Gods described in the earlier narratives (for example in Genesis 2&3 or Genesis 32) were also personal as well as personable Gods as opposed the the later impersonal God described in Genesis 1; but they were also not good Gods. Often they were ignorant, cruel, arbitrary, unreasoning, ruthless and unfair.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
do you believe that these Gods were entirely the authors inventions or do you believe that the authors at least thought that they had encountered these Gods in the course of their lives? The difference being that one is entirely made up and the other is reported.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
Phat writes: do you believe that these Gods were entirely the authors inventions or do you believe that the authors at least thought that they had encountered these Gods in the course of their lives? The difference being that one is entirely made up and the other is reported. I don't see that there would be any difference in those two scenarios. A report of something made up is still made up. But the evidence shows that in many of the examples found in sacred writings like the Bible stories the God is simply a plot device. In Genesis 1 the god is just a way to explain and justify the sacred week and Sabbath. In Genesis 2&3 the god is another plot device used to explain why we have a moral based society, why we farm and are not hunter gatherers, why we fear snakes, why childbirth for humans seemed more painful than for animals. In Genesis 32 the god is just there to let the Rabbi explain the creation of the people Israel and that we struggle with both god and man. In Exodus the God character is again just a plot device to help extend the story of the creation of a peoples over more than one night. The point is that the intent in all of these stories is human to human, community to community relations.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So it is entirely possible that we misunderstand the message.
You may argue that while many Biblical Christians expect (and perhaps want) God to again send His son and to intervene in fallible humanity to forever right the wrong,this is a global cop out. Do you believe that God as you understand Him wants us to learn to ride the bike without falling over? And do you believe any of the reports concerning an antichrist and whether or not it should concern us?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Do you believe that God as you understand Him wants us to learn to ride the bike without falling over? My beliefs are irrelevant. What does the evidence show? Is there any evidence of anyone riding the bike other than humans?
Phat writes: And do you believe any of the reports concerning an antichrist and whether or not it should concern us? I've never seen any reports concerning an antichrist; I've seen lots of unsupported factually wrong marketing of such a silly idea. And yes, it should absolutely concern us; the fact that people can take such utter nonsense seriously and even modify behavior based on such absurd fantasies should scare the shit out of any thinking person. We definitely need to fear anyone who can take such nonsense seriously.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
And do you believe any of the reports concerning an antichrist and whether or not it should concern us? Could you describe a report of the anti-Christ that you find credible? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
1.61803 Member (Idle past 1524 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined:
|
NoNukes writes: Could you describe a report of the anti-Christ that you find credible? Beelzebub at your service."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hawkins Member (Idle past 1394 days) Posts: 150 From: Hong Kong Joined: |
Freewill signifies division. That is given the choice of 0 and 1, as a mathematically/statistically expected outcome, some will choose 1 while others will choose 0. The end result is that some will be with God while others won't, it's nothing in between to be half with God and half not.
So as long as freewill is granted to the angels, they will have to divide as a logical result. Angels are made to be servants of God and the degree of freewill given to them is less than that of humans. As a result, their division will thus occur in heaven (simply means a place God currently dwells). Humans are put to a place outside God's realm (unlike the angels born in heaven where God lives), their division is thus here on earth. The division are all aimed for the goal of building a New Heaven and New Earth (i.e., an eternity) where God and angels and humans (those who made their way here) to live forever. It has nothing to do with God's omniscience. God just let go what should happen happens. of course, He can remove Satan right after he's created. However this is not witnessed. That is, to others God just randomly remove certain angels right after they are born for no reason. To let go everything as they should means that Satan will be judged openly with a said standard (God's Law) such that he will be legitimately banned from entering the future eternity we refer to as the New Heaven and New Earth. Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024