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Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The great basic question of science on origin of life | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
The great basic question of science: Membrane compartment or non-membrane phase compartment (biophase) is a physical basis for origin of life?
Matveev V.V. 2016. Comparison of fundamental physical properties of the model cells (protocells) and the living cells reveals the need in protophysiology. International Journal of Astrobiology, Page 1-8.Stable URL: Comparison of fundamental physical properties of the model cells (protocells) and the living cells reveals the need in protophysiology | International Journal of Astrobiology | Cambridge Core Preview PDF with highlights: http://www.bioparadigma.spb.ru/...Preview.and.Highlights.pdf The Biophase is the Physical Basis of Lifehttp://www.bioparadigma.spb.ru/...physical.basis.of.life.jpg Comments and critisim are welcome. Highlights1. If life originated in seawater, the origin of the first cell inevitably comes down to the origin of the sodium pump and any structure supporting it — the lipid membrane — without which the work of any pump would make little sense. 2. Since the sodium-potassium pump (Na+/K+-ATPase) was discovered, no molecular model has been proposed for a predecessor of the modern sodium pump. Neither Miller’s electrical charges, nor Fox’s amino-acid condensation, nor building ready-made biomolecules into coacervates; none of this has managed to lead to the self-origination of the progenitor of the ion pump even in favourable lab conditions. 3. In 2007, we saw the simultaneous release of two articles, in which it was posited that life originated not in seawater as previously thought, but in smaller bodies of water with a K+/Na+ ratio necessary to sustain life. In this conditions sodium pump is not needed and the pump can originate later. But why the pump is needed if K+/Na+ ratio is good? The origin of the sodium pump in conditions where there is no natural need for it may require the agency of Providence. 4. Potassium Big Bang on Earth instead of potassium ponds. 5. Fox's microspheres do not need potassium ponds. 6. Despite the fact that Fox's microspheres have no fully functional membrane with sodium pumps and specific ion channels, they generate action potentials similar to that by nerve cells and in addition have ion channels which open and close spontaneously. This ability of the microspheres contradicts to the generally accepted ideas about the mechanism of generation of biological electrical potentials. 7. Hodgkin-Huxley model of action potentials is similarly well-compatible with both the nerve cell and Fox’s microsphere. 8. Biophase as the main subject of protophysiology. In the past they considered the living cell as a non-membrane phase compartment with different physical properties in comparison to the surrounding medium, and this physical difference plays a key role in cell function. According to a new take on an old phase, non-membrane phase compartments play an important role in the functioning of the cell nucleus, nuclear envelope and then of cytoplasm. Somebody sees the compartments even as temporary organelles. According to available data, the phase compartments can play a key role in cell signaling. In this historical context, studies in recent years dedicated to non-membrane phase compartments in the living cells sound sensational. 9. It is essentially a Protocell World which weaves known RNA World, DNA World and Protein World into unity. 10. In the view of non-membrane phase approach, the usage of liposomes and other membrane (non-biophase) cell models to solve the issue of the origin of life is a deadlock way of the investigation. Edited by Vladimir Matveev, : No reason given.
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
Are added details enough?
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
RAZD: "In the above scenario we could have evaporating ponds providing the concentrations, then the cell membranes to protect them, perhaps in a semi-dormant phase, and then the pump."
Matveev: Only one question: why membrane sodium pump is needed in the potassium pond? In the pond K+/Na+ ratio is the same as in the living cell.
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
quote:Thanks, Percy.
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
quote:Sea tide floods potassium pond. And what happens after that?
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
quote:We need physical mechanisms rather than general assumptions. Pump, pump, pump... Where is experimental evidence of its spontaneous origin? There is no evidences, no proofs! No pump, no life.
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
quote: quote: quote:From my point of view, this means that life has been made possible without the pump. Here are 4 steps of my argument. (1) Since the sodium-potassium pump (Na+/K+-ATPase) was discovered, no molecular model has been proposed for a predecessor of the modern sodium pump. Neither Miller's electrical charges, nor Fox's amino-acid condensation, nor building ready-made biomolecules into coacervates; none of this has managed to lead to the self-origination of the progenitor of the ion pump even in favourable lab conditions. (2) It is impossible to explain the properties of well-studied cellular model (Fox's microspheres) on the basis of fudamental ideas of membrane physiology (lipid membrane, ion channels, sodium pump). (3) According to recent studies, non-membrane phase compartments play an important role in the functioning of the cell nucleus, nuclear envelope and then of cytoplasm. Somebody sees the compartments even as temporary organelles. According to available data, the phase compartments can play a key role in cell signaling. (4) In the view of non-membrane phase approach, the usage of liposomes and other membrane (non-biophase) cell models to solve the issue of the origin of life is a deadlock way of the investigation. With regard to the "accident", I can say the following: the conditions for life on Earth arose by chance, but the origin of life under suitable conditions is regularity. RAZD, you're welcome in St.Petersburg.
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
quote:Yes you are right. No experimental evidence of spontaneous emergence of the sodium pump in the literature. The scientific method requires experimental evidence. quote:This statement relates to the ability of the microspheres to generate an action potential which is indistinguishable from action potential genereted by living nerve cell. The well-known mechanism of action potential of a living cell can not be applied to the microspheres (the microspheres have NO a lipid membrane, specific ion channels and sodium pump). quote:The phase state of matter has special properties and it does not need in the membrane as a prison needs in a fence. The phase properties are determined by adsorption processes. Selective adsorption-desorption and ion exchange properties create inside physical conditions necessary for life processes. With this understanding fully functional membrane is not necessary. Why should we give up such a mechanism of origin of life? Edited by Vladimir Matveev, : No reason given.
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
quote:Your advice, please.
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
quote:Done: Comparison of fundamental physical properties of the model cells (protocells) and the living cells reveals the need in protophysiology | International Journal of Astrobiology | Cambridge Core Edited by Vladimir Matveev, : No reason given.
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
quote:Any discussion is useful if the problem is complicated.
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
quote:I believe that an abiotic synthesis of proteins, and properties of proteins are studied well enough. If the spontaneous formation of the pump would be possible in principle, it has already happened. Otherwise, waiting for the spontaneous formation of the pump turns into the expectation of the second coming of Christ. quote:Survival is not key point. Why the microspheres are able to generate an action potential without fully functional membrane, that is the question. Perhaps microspheres show us that our understanding of living cell physics is erroneous. The physics of the living cell is the key point. If we wrongly understand the physics, we never understand the origin of life. quote:Ion gradients are impossible without pumps. If the pump we replaced by adsorption of ions by proteins the protocell structure is simplified and become understandable. We know nothing about the old pumps, but we know very well that the proteins had the ability to adsorb ions of several billion years ago as well as nowadays. quote:With regard to the operation of the pump, we have only this children's animation: https://youtu.be/8XD7FXufB5I?t=44s At the same time we are well aware physical principles of adsorption. I prefer the science of adsorption rather than children's drawings of ion pumps. The ability of proteins to spontaneous synthesis is proved by experiments. But with the pumps we have a problem: we are waiting for their second coming. I go to sleep. Edited by Vladimir Matveev, : No reason given. Edited by Vladimir Matveev, : No reason given.
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
quote:The fundamental requirement: molecular evolution can take place only in the intracellular environment. No these conditions, no evolution. Biological evolution can not proceed in a non-biological conditions. [This also applies to RAZD's and AZPaul3's arguments.] It is an axiom. Fox microspheres can accumulate potassium without the pump and create needed intracellular environment. The microspheres are easy to study in a laboratory. Why nobody examines them? Instead, the literature is full of discussions about the possible evolution of the pump. Elephants have become a mammoth because the climate gets colder. Why do some protein molecule should evolve in the direction of the pump? Does this molecule "know" that pumps will be needed? May be agent of Providence gave it the direction to the pump? quote:Yes, yes, and yes again! It is one of the key point of my paper. Nobody can explain this similarity. quote:Evolution is a long process and it needs a long-term ion gradient. Temporary gradient? For a few minutes or a few hours? A diffusion equilibrium is established quickly. quote:Nobody knows what is to be done to create pump spontaneously in a tube. Is the following argument better: let us wait patiently? No one has a plan for the experiment. They were waiting for the Higgs boson 20 years. However, they had a theory that predicts the existence of it. This theory described specifically conditions under which one can observe the boson. Where is the theory describing specifically conditions of the spontaneous emergence of the pump? This theory does not exist! Hence we are not dealing with the science on the pump, we are dealing with a faith in the pump. quote:My main question is: if Fox's microspheres can produce life without a fully functional membrane, then why such membrane is needed for life after it came? I want to say that living cells have inherited the key physical properties of the microspheres (based on sorption properties of proteins) while the membrane has played a supporting role only as border structure. Thanks guys for the discussion. However, please read my paper for full intellectual contact! Edited by Vladimir Matveev, : No reason given. Edited by Vladimir Matveev, : No reason given. Edited by Vladimir Matveev, : No reason given.
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
quote:What are these conditions in its physical nature? I think these conditions are inside non-membrane phase based on adsorption properties of proteins. Most people think that these conditions exist within the membrane compartment. These opposing views presented in my article. Edited by Vladimir Matveev, : No reason given. Edited by Vladimir Matveev, : No reason given.
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Vladimir Matveev Junior Member (Idle past 2803 days) Posts: 25 From: St.Petersburg, Russia Joined: |
Thomas Huxley: Protoplasm is the physical basis of life. (http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE1/PhysB.html)
Over the past 150 years, the concept of protoplasm has been perverted and lost. The development of science allows us to take the next step: biophase is the physical basis of life. When we understand the physical basis of life, then we will understand the phenomenon of life.
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