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Author Topic:   Did Jesus teach reincarnation?
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1722
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 16 of 230 (776882)
01-21-2016 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by NoNukes
01-21-2016 1:11 PM


Re: Shi ites have the same confusion with the Mahdi
quote:

Is this question even possible to answer? Do we know enough about Elijah's current state to say whether his return to earth requires resurrection, reincarnation, or something less?

Many Christians say that Elijah and Enoch will be back on earth as the "two witnesses" in Revelation or something like that.

The "last gnostics" are a sect (until recently) from Iran and Iraq called the Mandeans

quote:

Save the Gnostics

By NATHANIEL DEUTSCHOCT. 7, 2007

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The United States didn't set out to eradicate the Mandeans, one of the oldest, smallest and least understood of the many minorities in Iraq.

This extinction in the making has simply been another unfortunate and entirely unintended consequence of the invasion of Iraq - though that will be of little comfort to the Mandeans, whose 2,000-year-old culture is in grave danger of disappearing from the face of the earth.

The Mandeans are the only surviving Gnostics from antiquity, cousins of the people who produced the Nag Hammadi writings like the Gospel of Thomas, a work that sheds invaluable light on the many ways in which Jesus was perceived in the early Christian period.

The Mandeans have their own language (Mandaic, a form of Aramaic close to the dialect of the Babylonian Talmud), an impressive body of literature, and a treasury of cultural and religious traditions amassed over two millennia of living in the southern marshes of present-day Iraq and Iran.

Practitioners of a religion at least as old as Christianity, the Mandeans have witnessed the rise of Islam; the Mongol invasion; the arrival of Europeans, who mistakenly identified them as "Christians of St. John," because of their veneration of John the Baptist; and, most recently, the oppressive regime of Saddam Hussein, who drained the marshes after the first gulf war, an ecological catastrophe equivalent to destroying the Everglades. They have withstood everything - until now.

Like their ancestors, contemporary Mandeans were able to survive as a community because of the delicate balance achieved among Iraq's many peoples over centuries of cohabitation. But our reckless prosecution of the war destroyed this balance, and the Mandeans, whose pacifist religion prohibits them from carrying weapons even for self-defense, found themselves victims of kidnappings, extortion, rapes, beatings, murders and forced conversions carried out by radical Islamic groups and common criminals.

http://www.nytimes.com/...nion/07iht-edeutsch.1.7783203.html


Interestingly, they are related to the Elkesaites and Mani (Mani was born in 216, the Elkesaites were a group that started exactly 100 AD and were an offshoot of Ebionite Jews who fled Jerusalem in the 60s AD)

quote:

Possibly related groups[edit]

Elkasaites[edit]

According to the Fihrist of ibn al-Nadim, the Mesopotamian prophet Mani, the founder of Manichaeism, was brought up within the Elkasaite (Elcesaite or Elchasaite) sect, this being confirmed more recently by the Cologne Mani Codex. The Elkasaites were a Judeo-Christian baptismal sect which seem to have been related, and possibly ancestral, to the Mandaeans (see Sabians). The members of this sect, like the Mandaeans, wore white and performed baptisms. They dwelt in east Judea and Assyria, whence the Mandaeans claim to have migrated to southern Mesopotamia, according to the Harran Gawaitâ legend. Mani later left the Elkasaites to found his own religion. In a comparative analysis, Mandaean scholar Säve-Söderberg indicated that Mani's Psalms of Thomas were closely related to Mandaean texts.[27] This would imply that Mani had access to Mandaean religious literature, or that both derived from the same source.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism

There doesn't seem to be any eschatology but I heard they believe in reincarnation.


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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1722
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 17 of 230 (776883)
01-21-2016 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
01-21-2016 9:55 PM


(Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
quote:

Did anyone alive at the time of Jesus know what Elijah was supposed to look like?

The Bible says angels weren't even noticed based on appearance. I'm thinking of the early books like Genesis.

Jesus wasn't blazing with light and he was an Avatar.

The name Krishna means black blackish blue or something.

I don't know if he was supposed to have been be noticed.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 230 (776887)
01-21-2016 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by LamarkNewAge
01-21-2016 10:16 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Avatar?

I think you've got the wrong religion there.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1722
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 19 of 230 (776888)
01-21-2016 11:43 PM


Just to be clear.
Elkasaites are a major issue here

quote:

The Blackwell Dictionary of Judaica

Judeo-Christian sect connected with the Essenes. They existed from the 2nd century in the Transjordan. They emphasized ritual purification, encouraged procreation, and regarded Jesus as one of a series of reincarnations of the Messiah.

http://www.blackwellreference.com/public/tocnode?id=g9780...


quote:

Some Contemporary Texts
•2 Peter (100-160 A.D.)
•Odes of Solomon (100-200 A.D.)
•Gospel of Eve (100-200 A.D.)
•Thunder, Perfect Mind (100-230 A.D.)
•Book of Elchasai (101-220 A.D.)
•Ignatius of Antioch (105-115 A.D.)
•Polycarp to the Philippians (110-140 A.D.)
•Papias (110-140 A.D.)
•Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel (110-160 A.D.)

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/elchasai.html


A 100/101 A.D. text is contemporary with a heck of a lot more than 2 Peter, but this should give us an idea.

Here is an 1880 encyelopedia article (Smith)
http://www.biblicalcyclopedia.com/E/elkesaites.html

Here is an online definition

quote:

Elkesai lived about 100. It is not clear whether he was an Ebionite* who developed particular views, or whether he came from a common background. He stressed the Law, though cutting out the false pericopes, rejected sacrifices and Paul, and taught vegetarianism. His Christology seems to have been Ebionite. In addition he claimed a special revelation given him by an angel (the Son of God) and a feminine being (the Holy Spirit). There is a common background for many of his concepts and the Shepherd of Hermas. Though strongly ascetic, there was an insistence on marriage and a great stress on baptism. Because his teaching was somewhat more orthodox than that of the Ebionites and showed more Gnostic tendencies, it spread to Alexandria and Rome. We know details largely through quotations in Hippolytus and Epiphanius. - See more at: https://www.biblicaltraining.org/...tes#sthash.zJsooABX.dpuf

Here is what the 100 year old Cathloic Encyclopedia said.

quote:

According to Hippolytus the teaching of Alcibiades was borrowed from various heresies. He taught circumcision, that Christ was a man like others, that he had many times been born on earth of a virgin, that he devoted himself to astrology, magic, and incantations
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05372a.htm

That Catholic Encyclopedia has a good article on the Ebionites

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05242c.htm

James said "remember the poor" (apparently the poor Jewish Christians of Jerusalem who needed funds) according to Paul in Galatians 2.
In Hebrew poor is 'evyon and a member of a named poor group is 'evyoni or Ebionite.

The Jewish Christians of Jerusalem fled to the east of Jordan before 70 AD. The founder of the Elkesaites got his "revelation 100/101.

This is an early sect and they spread far and wide.

Their views on reincarnation seem to match the views of Jesus. Their views on food seem to match both James and Paul's views.

This should be considered the earliest Christianity (emphasis on the "Christ" part).

And the Manicheans fundamentally are of an early Christian origin (the trip to India in 241 was NOT what caused Mani to have his Avatar/reincarnation beliefs! I admit that I thought that when I was younger. I though Manicheans were just some gnostic sect very far removed from Jesus, James, etc.). Or at least in the strain of Jesus and his followers (like his brother).

Their influence on the respective Islamic sects is a reflection of earliest Christianity and its teachings.

Eschatology obsessed "Christians" today struggle in vain to find any evidence at all of a "pre-tribulation rapture" tradition from the first 1000 years of the era. They aren't going to look and see the very strong reincarnation-based eschatological school which can clearly be said to be "the tradition of Jesus" himself.

But its there (to be ignored).


  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1722
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 20 of 230 (776890)
01-21-2016 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Jon
01-21-2016 11:35 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
quote:

Avatar?
I think you've got the wrong religion there.

Is a belief in resurrection the wrong (concept for the Jewish Christian) religion too?

Show me any teaching in the Bible on THAT before the time of the Persian Empire.

Adam (if he existed literally or at all) dates back no more recent than 4000 BCE.

Find me any Biblical text or character, from any of the first 3 millenniums that the Bible covers, who mentions a resurrection.

Adam?

Abraham?

Moses?

More Christians (after the time of Mani) believed in reincarnation and Avatars than believed in the the Old Testament.


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Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1722
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 21 of 230 (776891)
01-22-2016 12:41 AM


Manichean Psalms to Jesus
http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htm

Early part of the first Psalm.

quote:

Come, my Savior Jesus, do not forsake me.
Jesus, thee have I loved, I have given my soul
. . . . . . armor (?);
I have not given it rather to the foul (?) lusts
of the, world. Jesus, do not forsake me.
Lo, the glorious armor wherein thou hast girded thy
. . . holy commandment, I have put it upon my Iimbs,
I have fought against my enemies. Jesus, do not forsake me.

I, wandered into the whole world, I, witnessed all the
things that are in it, I saw that all men run vainly too and fro.
Jesus, do not forsake me.

O how long is the evil genius and madness of the Darkness
wherein they have been bound ; for they have forgotten
God, who came and gave himself up to death for them.
Jesus, do not forsake me.

When I saw these things, my Lord, I took thy hope and made
myself strong upon it. Thy yoke which thou didst enjoin on me,
I did not refuse it, my Lord.
Jesus, do not forsake me.

Thy excellent commandments which thou didst enjoin on me
I have fulfilled them my Savior.
Thy lamps of Light, I have not suffered
my enemies to put them out.
Jesus, do not forsake me.


And a good (the last gnostics) Mandean article (which links to 4 Encyclopedia Iranica articles)

http://www.gnosis.org/library/Mandaean_Religion_Rudolf.html


  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12705
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 22 of 230 (776938)
01-23-2016 8:38 AM


Moderator Announcement
Henceforth I will be hiding the content of all posts where the quoted portion is longer than the author's portion. From the Forum Guidelines:

  1. Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 23 of 230 (776945)
01-23-2016 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by LamarkNewAge
01-21-2016 11:49 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?

Show me any teaching in the Bible on THAT before the time of the Persian Empire.

The revelation of the Bible is progressive and unfolding. I don't know if it is significant to challenge when a certain aspect of the revelation, according to some date, is always significant.

And just because it occurs after a certain arbitrary pinpointed date may not be significant.

Would you be skeptical of a indication of belief in resurrection in the life of Abraham in Genesis 22:5. On his way to sacrifice his only son Isaac he told his accompanying servants that he and the lad would be returning to them. Since he knew he was to kill Isaac, the strong implication is that he expected that God would raise him from the dead.

The writer of Hebrews in the New Testament tells us that Abraham believed he would receive Isaac back in resurrection (Hebrews 11:17-19). We Christians count that as authoritative.


Adam (if he existed literally or at all) dates back no more recent than 4000 BCE.

Since there were gaps in the Hebrew genealogies I don't think we can conclusively date the life of Adam. The genealogies in the Bible are often according to God's priorities of accounting rather human. The connections are sometimes related to whom God accounted as important rather than strict unbroken family links.

Find me any Biblical text or character, from any of the first 3 millenniums that the Bible covers, who mentions a resurrection.

As I said, I am not sure pinpointing the date of such mention is conclusive.

The oldest book in the Bible is the book of Job. Though Job does not mention a physical resurrection he certainly believed he would stand before God even without a physical body at the end of the world before God his Redeemer (Job 19:25).


Adam?

I cannot think of Adam speaking of resurrection.


Abraham?

The evidence is that Abraham believed in God's raising the dead.

We should also consider that Genesis surprisingly devotes a whole chapter to the purchasing of a grave site for Sarah, Abraham's wife (Gen. 20). This was in a cave in a nice field in Macpelah. Since they never saw the full fulfillment of God's promises, and they lived all their lives as nomads in tents, the purchasing of a burial site with such care is significant.

Abraham never bought a house for Sarah but a whole chapter is devoted to his purchasing a tomb. I say this indicates that he expected God would raise them both from the dead and not fail to cause them to SEE the fulfillment of the promises that God had given them.

Abraham's life speaks of his belief in resurrection. Paul writes of Abraham -

" (As it is written, 'I have appointed you a father of many nations?') in the sight of God whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls the things not being as being." (Romans 4:17)


Moses?

Do you think that it has to be that EACH Old Testament prophet HAD to speak on the subject of resurrection ? I think it is not a necessary criteria. Abraham believed in resurrection and he precedes Moses.

And Job certainly precedes Moses. And I demonstrated Job's hope in at least a semi-physical resurrection at the end of the world.


More Christians (after the time of Mani) believed in reincarnation and Avatars than believed in the the Old Testament.

I don't know much about Avatars.

Of course we have a teaching of resurrection in the prophesy of Daniel and of Isaiah. See Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 25:7,8

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 01-23-2016 12:22 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 28 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-23-2016 4:17 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 35 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-23-2016 8:55 PM jaywill has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18826
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 24 of 230 (776946)
01-23-2016 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jaywill
01-23-2016 12:04 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

On his way to sacrifice his only son Isaac he told his accompanying servants that he and the lad would be returning to them. Since he knew he was to kill Isaac, the strong implication is that he expected that God would raise him from the dead.


Or, that he hoped he'd be able to weasel out of it - which he did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jaywill, posted 01-23-2016 12:04 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 25 of 230 (776951)
01-23-2016 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ringo
01-23-2016 12:22 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Paul's commentary is more conclusive to us disciples of Jesus - " ... in the sight of God whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls the things not being as being ." (Rom. 4:17b)

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


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 Message 24 by ringo, posted 01-23-2016 12:22 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 26 of 230 (776952)
01-23-2016 2:35 PM


The subject matter is whether or not Jesus taught Reincarnation.
No.

If you come back as another person or another living creature it is of absolutely no benefit to the supposed "previous" creature you allegedly were.

Reincarnation will not cleanse one from his sins in the bible.
Reincarnation is not taught in the Bible.

You can hope in reincarnation to be of some benefit to you.
But the fact of the matter is you have NO sense and no recollection of how your existence TODAY is of any advantage to what you believe you were before in another life.

You were not in the past.
You are here now.
Of what advantage is there to your totally unknown previous life (IF such a thing is true)?

Your self is YOUR self. And previous person was some previous SELF of which you have no subjective knowledge personally as being that person.

Evil spirits and demonic beings in the spiritual world can deceive people to thinking some kind of channeling or contact with past persons is taking place. This is the occult and deception of deceiving spirit which the Old Testament warned against as "familiar spirits".

Jesus didn't teach a thing about reincarnation. That is what I would say.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 27 of 230 (776954)
01-23-2016 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jaywill
01-23-2016 2:35 PM


I have been thinking on this definition ?

Reincarnation is the religious or philosophical concept that the soul or spirit, after biological death, can begin a new life in a new body. This doctrine is a central tenet of the Hindu religion.

And I think I can think of one exception possibly in the Bible. That is someone coming again in another person's body. But I will not go into it here. Maybe on a thread on Bible Study I would do so.

One legitimate case of someone coming from a previous age in which he died into a subsequent age in another person's body, I can locate in the book of Revelation. But the progression is not for the better but for the worse.

The Antichrist is a return of the soul of Caesar Nero into the body of an assassinated and resuscitated coming world leader.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1722
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 28 of 230 (776958)
01-23-2016 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jaywill
01-23-2016 12:04 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
(question for Director. Does my quote of jaywill count as my words or a "cut n paste"?)

Jaywill said

quote:

Would you be skeptical of a indication of belief in resurrection in the life of Abraham in Genesis 22:5. On his way to sacrifice his only son Isaac he told his accompanying servants that he and the lad would be returning to them. Since he knew he was to kill Isaac, the strong implication is that he expected that God would raise him from the dead.

The writer of Hebrews in the New Testament tells us that Abraham believed he would receive Isaac back in resurrection (Hebrews 11:17-19). We Christians count that as authoritative.


Hebrews is interesting because early Christians disputed whether it should be included in the cannon. Origin didn't want books included that quoted from apocryphal or non-canonical sources. That included Jude, 2 Peter, and Hebrews. He naturally didn't think Enoch should be in the Bible. Hebrews quoted Maccabees, so he didn't think it should be included in the cannon.

quote:

Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

This quotes an important apocryphal book on the subject. Catholics use this as evidence of purgatory. Zoroastrians had a 3000 year Judgment Day and hell was destroyed at the end (everybody gets saved). Revelation 20 seems to be from the Zoroastrian Judgment day.

Early Christians thought Clement of Rome wrote Hebrews (I think Jerome thought that). It canonicity was questioned.

Maccabees was important on this subject.

quote:

In the postbiblical period, the Jewish group known as the Sadducees famously denied the future life altogether. The Sadducees, according to the first-century C.E. Jewish historian Josephus, held that “the soul perishes along with the body” (18.16). Other Jews spoke, platonically, of a disembodied immortality; according to the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, at death the philosopher’s soul would assume “a higher existence, immortal and uncreated.”[3] Still others appear to display some kind of resurrection belief, as in Josephus and the Wisdom of Solomon. “In the time of their visitation they will shine forth, and will run like sparks through the stubble. They will govern nations and rule over people, and the Lord will reign over them for ever” (Wisdom of Solomon 3:7-8)[4]. The clearest statements of resurrection after Daniel 12, however, are found in 2 Maccabees, the Mishnah and the later rabbinic writings. In 2 Maccabees, a martyr on the verge of death puts out his tongue, stretches out his arms and declares: “I got these from Heaven, and because of his Laws I disdain them, and from him I hope to get them back again” (2 Maccabees 7:11). According to Mishnah 10.1, “All Israelites have a share in the world to come; ... and these are they that have no share in the world to come: he that says that there is no resurrection of the dead prescribed in the Law.”
http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Resurrection.htm

There were lots of reinterpretations of earlier books.

quote:

As pointed out by Greenberg,10 the Vision of the Valley of Bones in Ezekiel 37 presents an interesting interpretive conundrum: while modern scholars nearly unanimously agree that the passage speaks of national restoration, early Jewish and Christian exegesis interpreted the passage as a justification for the idea of bodily resurrection. This difference suggests a change within some Judaean circles between the writing of Ezekiel 37 and the later interpreters—the idea of resurrection became known and accepted, and this idea was then seen to be taught by a literal reading of the Ezekielian text. The mural of this passage found in the Dura Europos synagogue demonstrates that some Jews felt that this literal interpretation of Ezek 37 was slightly too similar to Zoroastrian ideas of resurrection for comfort—the painting altered the bones to body parts.11 The muralist was quite correct, as a number of features resemble Iranian ideas concerning the experience after death. The presence of these (likely fortuitous) parallels can be seen to have offered a way for Judaeans to have interpreted the new idea of bodily resurrection as already inherent in their own traditions. When the inheritors of Ezekiel were exposed to such ideas, they already had a way to fit them into their worldview. Thus, a shift from a metaphorical to a literal interpretation of the oracle would have both coincided with and facilitated interaction with Iranian ideas about the afterlife, in this case, bodily resurrection.
http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/sil358017.shtml

quote:

The oldest book in the Bible is the book of Job. Though Job does not mention a physical resurrection he certainly believed he would stand before God even without a physical body at the end of the world before God his Redeemer (Job 19:25).

Here is what a fundamentalist says about the typical translation.

http://www.patheos.com/...03/job-1926-a-resurrection-passage

Job is problematic in translation. The Hebrew text does not support the Septuagint Greek text, which modern translations, that verse,are based. (this is typical of the entire book of Job btw.) The only thing scholars know for sure about Job is that it was written after 600 BC (they can date the text), but they have difficulty reading it. It's a strange language.

Here is another great link on the subject. Full of scholars opinions on the issue. (I wont quote them, because it will take up too many words)

http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_k2&view=i...oes-job-19-predict-the-resurrection-of-a-body-of-flesh

Jaywill said

quote:

Of course we have a teaching of resurrection in the prophesy of Daniel and of Isaiah. See Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 25:7,8

This supports link your view.
http://www.perspectivedigest.org/...ion-in-the-old-testament

Isaiah 25:7-8 is typically interpreted, by scholars, as symbolic and 26:19 is interpreted as a national restoration.

The book of Isaiah mentions Cyrus (see chapter 45), who conquered Babylon is 539 BCE, so it raises the possibility that parts of Isaiah 1-39 were much later than 700 BCE just like all of 40-66.

The mainstream scholarly consensus is that Daniel was the first undisputed reference to an afterlife. 2 Isaiah (the parts that mention Cyrus) speaks of people reaching an age where they live forever while not seeing death. It seems to describe an evolution into a spiritual body perhaps. The animals are all vegetarian and don't eat each other.

The Iranian Zoroastrian texts have a new age that precedes Judgment Day. People stop eating meat, then stop eating plants, then stop drinking water. That brings Judgment Day. Then the 3000 year Judgment Day begins. The Devil is put in a pit while people are taught. Hell is only temporary and it is destroyed with death at the end of Judgment Day. Much like Revelation 20.

On a related subject (what Jews thought of the Messiah and the 3 day resurrection), there seems to be a discovery of a 1st century CE text on the subject. My first 2 links below link to the issue. I won't quote it because my post could be hidden if I quote too much. I did a quick scan of the internet for "recent discovery" type of issues.

This first link below mentions and links to what seems like a major discovery on the issue of a Messiah resurrecting after 3 days.

http://www.theblaze.com/...scoveries-about-jesus-of-nazareth

http://www.deseretnews.com/...-for-the-historical-Jesus.html

http://www.magic-city-news.com/...rting_the_Bible14927.shtml

http://www.topsecretwriters.com/...rchaeological-discoveries

Most of the evidence supports the view that the first century Jewish people were developing views on the Messiah that were not present before. I feel that it is very much parallel to the issue of Avatar. A pre-existent God incarnating females in a spermless type of conception. The Bhagavad Gita talks about the Hindu God (or holy spirit) promising to incarnate in future ages whenever the times calls for such.

The Messiah in the Christian Bible should be seen as a Palestinian translation of Avatar. The Gospel of Matthew talks about Zoroastrian Priests (Magi) following the Star of Bethlehem. It mentions the incarnation.

The "Messianic expectation" didn't include a divine incarnation, from any texts I have seen. Unless one understands the Indian Avatar issue.

The Elkesaites came into existence 100/101 AD and were from the community of Jewish Christians that were associated with James, brother of Jesus. They clearly believed in Avatars. It came from a pure Christian environment too.

The Gospel of John and the synoptic Gospels show a clear presence of eschatological reincarnations in Jesus' words and thoughts. John should be understood as polemical. It was responding to current issues in the day (c. 100 BCE) which certain Christians felt the need to airbrush or clarify.

The "Book of Elkesai" and the Gospel of John are parallel.

Avatars and incarnations were a clear and present issue to the people of the time. Just because we don't understand the issues doesn't mean that the c.100 A.D./C.E. writers did not know what they were responding to.

Scholars say that pre-Persian Empire Jews didn't have the same afterlife views (although the story of the Witch of Endor and Samuel clearly show they had certain views) as Exilic/2nd Temple Jews had.

The idea of progressive revelation backs up my theological conclusions. Every words in your post backs up my stance. My stance is that reincarnation is a Biblical concept. That includes the Avatar issues.

Its time we take another look at this whole issue.

Never forget that "wise men" is a false translation of *magi.

Magi is the plural word for Zoroastrian priests. The Parthian Empire to the "east" (you can say, ex orient lux, or "from the east, light") touched the Roman Empire to its west and India and China to its east.

The Parthians controlled Jerusalem until the year Herod the Great was born. 37 BC.

In Acts 2, Jews from Elam, Parthia, and other Iranian towns were present.

The Eastern light was mentioned in the Jesus Christ Messiah story from the very first pages in the Christian Bible. (mind you they said we saw the light from the east, so that doesn't mean the star came from the east I suppose) There were lots of concepts compatible with "messianic expectation" of the east.

We need to rewrite our entire understanding of the 1st century issues so they become 21st century issues.

We need to become aware.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jaywill, posted 01-23-2016 12:04 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 32 by jaywill, posted 01-23-2016 5:00 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1722
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 29 of 230 (776959)
01-23-2016 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Admin
01-23-2016 8:38 AM


Re: Moderator Announcement
Give me a chance to edit if the numbers don't add up.

Let me know, but I hope my quotes of jaywill don't count against me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Admin, posted 01-23-2016 8:38 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1722
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 30 of 230 (776960)
01-23-2016 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jaywill
01-23-2016 2:35 PM


Jaywill
quote:

The subject matter is whether or not Jesus taught Reincarnation.
No.
If you come back as another person or another living creature it is of absolutely no benefit to the supposed "previous" creature you allegedly were.

Reincarnation will not cleanse one from his sins in the bible.
Reincarnation is not taught in the Bible.


The conservative Oxford Dictionary of World Religions disagrees with you. (it was covering the synoptic Gospel quotes of Jesus and it said flatly that John was a reincarnation of Elijah).

Ultimately, it comes down to one of two possibilities.

Did Jesus know what he was talking about and, assuming the answer was "yes", then was he correct?

Or did Jesus simply make the reincarnation story up to try to shoehorn the Malachi 4 text (and 1st century Jewish expectations) into what he was trying to portray himself as to the people.

Those who deny that John was a reincarnation of Elijah think Jesus was just using a lame excuse (he lied) to justify peoples acceptance of him.

Period.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jaywill, posted 01-23-2016 2:35 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
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