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Author Topic:   Did Jesus teach reincarnation?
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 61 of 230 (777039)
01-25-2016 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by jaywill
01-24-2016 4:34 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

Just reading Genesis, the case that Abraham believed in the God of resurrection, may be arguable to some, though not to myself.


That's not what I'm arguing. I just pointed out that Abraham knew that Isaac would live to have children:
quote:
Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

If he expected God to instantly resurrect Isaac, it wasn't much of a sacrifice.

Note that when Job went through his trials and tribulations, he got everything back except his children. That was a sacrifice. Why didn't God instantly resurrect them too?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 01-24-2016 4:34 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 12:13 PM ringo has responded
 Message 67 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 12:57 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 68 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 1:03 PM ringo has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 934 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 62 of 230 (777041)
01-25-2016 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
01-25-2016 10:51 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
I don't regard this as a really serious question.

So you are a clever skeptic of the Christian faith.
I got that.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 01-25-2016 10:51 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 01-25-2016 12:21 PM jaywill has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 63 of 230 (777042)
01-25-2016 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jaywill
01-25-2016 12:13 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

I don't regard this as a really serious question.


Of course you don't. When the Bible contradicts your doctrines, the standard practice is to run away.

(For what it's worth, I agree with you that Jesus didn't teach reincarnation. I'm just saying that that one argument is weak.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 12:13 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 12:28 PM ringo has responded
 Message 69 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 1:11 PM ringo has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 934 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 64 of 230 (777043)
01-25-2016 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ringo
01-25-2016 12:21 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Oh, I don't mind at all when the Bible offers me some contradictions, paradoxes.
That doesn't bother me.

You're clever. You're clever. Okay, I got it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 01-25-2016 12:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 01-25-2016 12:31 PM jaywill has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 65 of 230 (777044)
01-25-2016 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by jaywill
01-25-2016 12:28 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

You're clever. You're clever. Okay, I got it.


It isn't about being clever. It's about reading what the Bible says. If you use such a weak argument, why would anybody take your other arguments seriously? Instead of thanking me for helping you, you mock me as a "skeptic".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 12:28 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 12:46 PM ringo has responded
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 02-04-2016 1:19 AM ringo has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 934 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 66 of 230 (777046)
01-25-2016 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by ringo
01-25-2016 12:31 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
I noticed that you looked askance at the matter of Jesus teaching reincarnation.

I already told you that Paul's word on Abraham carries a settled argument for me.
That is it would supersede my feeling just on reading the Genesis story alone

So I don't think Abraham's hope in "the God who gives life to the dead " is a weak rationale.

God's dealings with Job were His dealings with Job.
I don't expect, as I read through the Bible, God's dealings will be exactly the same with all men and women.

.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 01-25-2016 12:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 01-26-2016 10:41 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 934 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 67 of 230 (777047)
01-25-2016 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
01-25-2016 10:51 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
quote:
If he expected God to instantly resurrect Isaac, it wasn't much of a sacrifice.

I think I'll run away if you don't mind.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 01-25-2016 10:51 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 934 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 68 of 230 (777048)
01-25-2016 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
01-25-2016 10:51 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
quote:
Note that when Job went through his trials and tribulations, he got everything back except his children. That was a sacrifice.

Job was not asked by God to give up his children.
They were just taken from him.
He had no choice in the matter.

So I don't think the two experiences are alike in that regard.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 01-25-2016 10:51 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 01-26-2016 10:45 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 934 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 69 of 230 (777049)
01-25-2016 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ringo
01-25-2016 12:21 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
quote:
(For what it's worth, I agree with you that Jesus didn't teach reincarnation. I'm just saying that that one argument is weak.)

So if we just look at Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac WITHOUT the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans 4 or the description in the book of Hebrews, just as a first time reader of the book of Genesis ... Okay. we may very well overlook his hope in resurrection.

Sure, it may escape our notice even when he said they would come back after the sacrifice.

Why be hostile to what the New Testament explains about Abraham's experience? Do you have some basic reason why the NT should not be taken as legitimate discussion of the book of Genesis ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 01-25-2016 12:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by NoNukes, posted 01-25-2016 6:33 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 74 by NoNukes, posted 01-25-2016 10:05 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 01-26-2016 10:56 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 230 (777063)
01-25-2016 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jaywill
01-25-2016 1:11 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Why be hostile to what the New Testament explains about Abraham's experience? Do you have some basic reason why the NT should not be taken as legitimate discussion of the book of Genesis ?

Because it is an after the fact explanation. People are skeptical for the same reason they are skeptical regarding those Nostradamus prophecies that get mapped onto events after they occur.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 1:11 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 8:43 PM NoNukes has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 934 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 71 of 230 (777075)
01-25-2016 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by NoNukes
01-25-2016 6:33 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
quote:
Because it is an after the fact explanation. People are skeptical for the same reason they are skeptical regarding those Nostradamus prophecies that get mapped onto events after they occur.

In this case of Genesis and Romans, usually it is not because it is an after the fact explanation. Rather some peoples' problem is that it is an after the fact explanation which is theistic.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by NoNukes, posted 01-25-2016 6:33 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by NoNukes, posted 01-25-2016 9:45 PM jaywill has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 230 (777078)
01-25-2016 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jaywill
01-25-2016 8:43 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
In this case of Genesis and Romans, usually it is not because it is an after the fact explanation. Rather some peoples' problem is that it is an after the fact explanation which is theistic.

After after the fact explanations, particularly when used to claim predictions and prophecy are always going to be an issue. People rightly question such arguments regardless of whether theology is involved as my example using Nostradamus was designed to show.

If your arguments regarding your theology built on such things, it is then questionable to make accusations about why your arguments are not accepted, because the argument has an inherent weakness. Perhaps you simply need a better argument.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 8:43 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 9:58 PM NoNukes has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 934 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 73 of 230 (777080)
01-25-2016 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by NoNukes
01-25-2016 9:45 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
quote:
If your arguments regarding your theology built on such things, it is then questionable to make accusations about why your arguments are not accepted, because the argument has an inherent weakness. Perhaps you simply need a better argument.

Naa, I need more faith.

Do you think Jesus taught reincarnation ?
I don't think so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by NoNukes, posted 01-25-2016 9:45 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by NoNukes, posted 01-25-2016 11:26 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 230 (777081)
01-25-2016 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jaywill
01-25-2016 1:11 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Sure, it may escape our notice even when he said they would come back after the sacrifice.

You are ignoring some elements of the story. What Abraham told Isaac (that a sheep would be provided for sacrifice) was completely inconsistent with an expectation that Isaac would die and then be resurrected. Further, this story and others in Genesis tell us that Abraham was quite capable of lying if he felt the circumstances warranted it. One egregious example is telling King Abimelech that his wife was his sister where the clear expectation was that his wife would be raped and Abraham would be spared.

So the question becomes exactly which of Abraham's utterances we should take as being the truth. A second question is whether Abraham was expecting that "the Lord would provide" a sheep or a resurrection. Regardless of his expectation, the story is clear that Abraham intended to do what God asked. But what isn't clear even if Abraham was truthful about his expectation of Isaac returning, is exactly how Abraham anticipated the situation to be resolved.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 1:11 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jaywill, posted 01-26-2016 12:44 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 230 (777085)
01-25-2016 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by jaywill
01-25-2016 9:58 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Do you think Jesus taught reincarnation ?

No, I don't.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 9:58 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
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