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Author Topic:   Hypocrisy Among American Fundamentalists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 122 (777094)
01-26-2016 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by GDR
01-25-2016 6:22 PM


Fundamentalism By Definition
GDR writes:
It is my view that Christian fundamentalism as is seen in the western world, although predominately in the US, is an aberration of the Christian faith.
First lets define a few terms, shall we?
Fundamentalist-(Urban Dictionary had the funniest response!
quote:
A person who takes their religion so literally and to such extremes that they contradict the very basis of their faith. They typically believe in a literal, verbatim interpretation of their scripture. They also have ridiculous, childish defenses to intelligent criticism of their beliefs that border on insanity.
I would say that Christians who do not consider themselves fundamentalists--or at least conservative--believe in scripture as inspired by God. This does not necessitate that it be word for word literal. I persionally lean towards a belief in thought for thought literalism. As a sidenote, our very own Ringo has a quote that bears repeating. To wit:
Ringo writes:
An atheist says, "My spirit is my psyche."
An agnostic says, "My spirit might have an external source. I don't know."
A theist says, "My spirit comes from God."
A fundamentalist says, "My spirit comes from God, but yours doesn't."
GDR writes:
In this case it is a religion that combines the idea of an inerrant Bible, politics and American nationalism. My view is that we are comparing that with a Christianity based on Scripture, reason and tradition. (I view tradition as being the accumulated wisdom over time and particularly since the time of the resurrection.
I somewhat agree with you--as we discuss this more I will define my own position.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by GDR, posted 01-25-2016 6:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by GDR, posted 01-26-2016 11:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 122 (777530)
02-03-2016 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
02-03-2016 2:00 AM


Re: Politics before Christianity
As for letting the end times slide as slide they will, we are never told in scripture to let evil triumph. Our job is always to be supporting righteousness even against impossible odds.
I would say that our job is to allow righteousness to live through us. It is possible, and it requires more humility than i currently possess.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 02-03-2016 2:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 02-03-2016 2:34 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 69 of 122 (777571)
02-03-2016 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
02-03-2016 2:34 AM


Re: Politics before Christianity
Quite frankly, I dont believe that a christian should ever be president of the united States due to conflict of interest. The interests of the United States are not what Jesus would advocate, in my opinion.
Of course the alternative president would be worse....so this is not an easy issue to discuss. Were we a Theocracy rather than a Democracy (or Republic, according to some) the issue would be easier.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 02-03-2016 2:34 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2016 1:12 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 122 (777584)
02-04-2016 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by ICANT
02-04-2016 1:12 AM


Re: Politics before Christianity
The United States had different interests in IKEs time.
Our national focus has faded since then, IMHO.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2016 1:12 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 91 of 122 (777630)
02-04-2016 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Percy
02-04-2016 7:23 AM


Re: Politics before Christianity
Percy writes:
There is not just one meaning of gospel, and someone can choose whichever one they like, hopefully making the one they intended clear from context.
So it means "good news". I have been taught that the words are alive. If anyone of you were speaking a life or death message of common significance, and if you were certain that what you heard came directly or indirectly from God, aside from critically examining your "certainty" wouldnt you be sure and articulate whatever you told others with the importance of the source and content of such a message?
Edited by Phat, : ? added

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Percy, posted 02-04-2016 7:23 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 02-04-2016 7:45 PM Phat has replied
 Message 95 by Percy, posted 02-04-2016 8:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 93 of 122 (777633)
02-04-2016 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
02-04-2016 7:45 PM


Re: Politics before Christianity
How are words alive?
They have been initially formed in the mind of a living being, arranged in the manner that the being wishes to communicate. Filtered through translators diminishes the impact only if the message has changed.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 02-04-2016 7:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 02-04-2016 9:40 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 122 (777635)
02-04-2016 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
02-04-2016 7:45 PM


Testing Against Reality
Unless you test the message against reality how can you tell if it has any value, importance, significance or is from any particular source?
True. And the God in whom I believe equates to reality,as far as I can tell so far.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 02-04-2016 7:45 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 02-04-2016 10:17 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 122 (777646)
02-04-2016 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
02-04-2016 9:40 PM


Re: Politics before Christianity
If I form a jug is the jug alive?
Is this your best attempt at communication? With a jug?
If someone translates the jug does it have any meaning?
How does one translate a jug?
More so, a Creator by definition does more than sit on a potters wheel forming jugs.
The entire point of the Word becoming flesh and dwelling among us was and iscommunication.
Lets take a recent Bible Study i had-how to differentiate the will of God from the plan of God. Of course, you will likely ask me all sorts of non-believing questions like "how do I know god is alive? or How do I know God is real...etc etc.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 02-04-2016 9:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 02-05-2016 8:50 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 114 of 122 (781063)
03-31-2016 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
02-05-2016 8:50 AM


Who Wrote What & Why?
jar writes:
How do you test to see if something is the will of God?
How do you test to determine if something is the Plan of God?
What are the tests? Do any of the tests require some prior conditions of YOUR personal beliefs?
Can the tests be done with consistent results whether the tester is a believer or non-believer?
Compare what you describe to what scientists do.
It is irrelevant what the tester believes the answer should be, the results are what the testing device shows.
The testing device itself is tested before and after the test to remove any artifacts that are the result of the device itself.
And there are outside independent folk that are also testing and their results must match the earlier results or there is a full stop until the discrepancies are explained and understood.
Sounds like the words of an honest agnostic to me.
When we read Tom Sawyer, we expect the words of Mark Twain to come through the characters. If we simply said that many unknown folks wrote Tom Sawyer, would the stories IMPACT be any less?
Heck, what if computers "wrote" it? How would we test the truthfulness of the words,phrases and stories against "reality"? Is it possible for a computer to be truthful? Is it possible for a computer to lie? Is it possible for a computer to have an ulterior motive?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 02-05-2016 8:50 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 03-31-2016 9:31 AM Phat has replied
 Message 117 by dwise1, posted 04-01-2016 12:05 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 115 of 122 (781067)
03-31-2016 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by GDR
01-26-2016 7:27 PM


Depart From Me Ye Hypocrites!
GDR writes:
Frankly in the US right now I have no idea who I would support. I obviously don't vote. If I were to be voting in the US I would normally favour the Republicans but there are many times I have favoured the democratic candidate.
I wonder if our Creator cares who we vote for or how we decide?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by GDR, posted 01-26-2016 7:27 PM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 118 of 122 (781132)
04-01-2016 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
03-31-2016 9:31 AM


Re: Who Wrote What & Why?
jar writes:
Phat, you are just trying to palm the pea, con the rubes, move the goal posts.
You always say this, and yet I honestly am unconscious of any motivation to fool anybody. What I think is happening is our old source vs content argument that you attempted to show me some years back. I was merely attempting to show that source matters and that human beings are capable of truthful content if inspired by the right source. Also that hypothetically a computer can neither be inspired nor uninspired. I suppose you could argue that facts are facts and reality is reality and if I move the goalposts in order to win that one, it is intellectually dishonest. You know of my belief in a necessary source to inspire and/or illuminate content.
Im still trying to work through this philosophy.
ABe: Perhaps you would argue that even if Source was tales told around a campfire, Content can still be important and valid. Am I close?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 03-31-2016 9:31 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 04-01-2016 9:22 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 119 of 122 (781133)
04-01-2016 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by dwise1
04-01-2016 12:05 AM


Re: Who Wrote What & Why?
DWise1 writes:
Granted, your "argument" is pure sophistry (to elevate it far higher than it deserves).
Now you have me pulling out the Dictionary again to see what sophistry is! And what does my argument deserve? In your eyes, what precisely is my argument? I need some help here
ABe:
Sophistry-the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.
a fallacious argument.
My argument may certainly be fallacious...but who decides? Also I have no intention of deceiving anyone.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by dwise1, posted 04-01-2016 12:05 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 121 of 122 (781156)
04-01-2016 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
04-01-2016 9:22 AM


Re: Who Wrote What & Why?
jar writes:
My argument is that every source can be wrong, can lie, can be mistaken, can mislead, can word replies to make them intentionally ambiguous.
Even Jesus?
I was asking you to tell us what you learned in the class you claimed to have just taken. What were the techniques they taught you to use to discriminate between the will of God and the plan of God?
To be honest with you, I forgot what I learned. It made sense at the time, however.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 04-01-2016 9:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 04-01-2016 12:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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