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Author Topic:   Did Jesus teach reincarnation?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 94 of 230 (777199)
01-27-2016 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by LamarkNewAge
01-26-2016 11:24 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
quote:
Romans 9 might be an exception. (Historians seem certain that the massive bulk of what Paul said is clear enough to settle the issue and thus is an indication that he DID NOT teach that Jesus was God)

You have Romans in your list of "authentic" letters of Paul.
So you have no problem with saying these are Paul's thoughts.

Now let's go to the 8th chapter of Romans. Here we do not see a systematic theological formal. But we do see his "shop talk". In other words he is speaking of the experience of his audience.

In speaking of the experience of his audience Paul uses, seamlessly and enterchangeably some titles -

The Spirit of God
The Spirit of Christ
Christ
The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead,

Notice how, in speaking of the Christians' enjoyment and subjective experience, he moves from one title to the the next without taking a breath. Each title speaks of the One who indwells the believers.

"But you are not in the flesh. but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Romans 8:9-11)

Once again. A statement of systematic theology this is not. But it is "shop talk" in which his audience seems is suppose to perfectly understand that -

Christ is the Spirit of Christ.
Christ is the Spirit of God.
Christ is also the Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead.

It is not FOUR separated Persons who indwell the believers. It is One mysterious Person with interchangeable titles, for man's enjoyment. For Paul the Spirit of God is Christ. And He is also the One Who raised Jesus from the dead.

This verse is about the experience of the Trinity as an indwelling One giving divine life.
My God is the Man Jesus Christ. And He is able to dispense Himself into us.

This portion talks about the indwelling God Who gives life. And it agrees with Paul in the other letter First Corinthians that Christ became a life giving Spirit.

" ... the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45)

To give life here really means to give God Himself - the uncreated and eternal life.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-26-2016 11:24 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 12:34 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 98 of 230 (777228)
01-27-2016 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by NoNukes
01-27-2016 12:59 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
quote:
Whoa, dude. You assume too much here. Your trying to conclude from my statement essentially that anything written post Jesus is wrong. That's not what I mean at all.

I'm just going on what you said - after the fact prophetic explanations are suspect.
If I assumed much, then I wouldn't have asked for an explanation.

quote:

What I don't subscribe to is the faux prophecy and numerology aspect of Bible study that make up the bulk of the sermons of many pastors but which don't advance Christianity or Christs essential message in any way.

Up to now I am still puzzled.
I think, I go on a case by case basis.

I am not sure if by numerology, you mean something like the De-Vince Code.
That numbers have typologolical significance, in some cases, in Scripture, I have been persuaded.

quote:

But in the case of this particular context, what we are talking about is what makes a sensible argument. Yours argument is simply weak, but in my opinion, unnecessary. Attempts to build a bridge between Abraham and Jesus might be important if your task was to convince Jews that they missed the Messiah, but I don't have that particular problem.

The Gospel of Matthew DOES draw a connection between the two.

"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matt. 1:1)

I think that Jesus Himself drew a connection between Himself and Abraham. For example, when He said -


" ... If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God;

Abraham did not do this." (John 8:39,40)

In Luke 16:22 Jesus told of an account of a poor man being carried away in death, into Abraham's bosom. His teaching there is an integral part of His message concerning His ministry.

So I think a bridge between Abraham and Jesus was built by Jesus.

"Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am." (John 8:58)

quote:

Your question is totally off point. It is not relevant to the question at hand. It has some relevance to the topic of the thread, but given that we agree wrt reincarnation, I really don't get your point.

You said after the fact prophecy you count as bogus, basically.
I take that to mean that after the event prophetic speaking concerning the significance of the event, is taken by you as bogus.

I was trying to see how far you take that. Jesus explained (after the fact) the significance of His death and resurrection, as did Peter and the other apostles.

My attitude is that I am completely open to what latter prophets and apostles expounded about earlier events. Extra- biblical explanations, I take on a case by case basis.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2016 12:59 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2016 8:35 PM jaywill has taken no action

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 101 of 230 (777262)
01-28-2016 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by LamarkNewAge
01-28-2016 12:34 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
LNR,

Let me only mention that I have heard lectures from Bart Erhman. And I have seen some debates with him also. I would say I have heard about five. Through Teaching Company cassettes and CDs, I took the initiative to listen to lectures by Dr. Erhman several years ago.

I want to pay more attention to our talk on Romans below right now.

quote:
But Jesus is considered the "eternal son of God" and it is considered a heresy to say that Jesus was just fulfilling a temporary "office" in the flesh.

I believe Jesus is God incarnate. And though the phrase "eternal Son of God" I don't find in the Bible, the Son of God is the eternal God, no doubt.

He was "made both Lord and Christ" as to an "office" forever.

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made Him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you have crucified." (Acts 2:26)

We should see that His being eternal before incarnation does not negate that God made installed Him in an "office," if you wish as "Lord and Christ"

The "office" is forever into the eternity -

" Who has been appointed not according to the law of a fleshy commandment but according to the power of an indestructible life. For it is testified, 'You are a Priest forever according to the order of Melchisedec.' (Hebrews 7:16,17)

He Who was God, uncreated and eternal, became a man. And in resurrection was established in an "office" which extends eternally.

quote:

Jesus isn't simply "God the son" (in a temporary 30 year period) but he is considered a separate entity on his own.

The way we put it where I meet, is that He is distinct but not separate. But this is very difficult for human beings to explain - the three - oneness of God. That is why the Romans passage is so good. It just takes for granted that the believers were in the experience of this "three-oneness".

There are some things that are experiential and enjoyable though not [edited] easy or perhaps possible to fully explain. The Father and the Son are distinct but not separate.
The Holy Spirit and the Son and the Father are distinct but never separated.

quote:

For one and all time. That is according to the typical interpretation of the Christological heretic hunters. Your interpretation is a heresy worthy of death.

Sounds like the Grand Inquisition here.
So far, I have agreed the Son of God is eternal - God is eternal.
I have said that as a man He still was made Lord and Christ, an "office" if you like that word.
And I have said He is installed in that office forever.

I am willing by God's grace to die for those beliefs.
But I don't yet see where your charge of "heresy" comes in in any of this.

quote:

Here is a Jehovah's Witness site that mentions this verse in its broader context.

I don't know why you want to bring in Jehovah Witnesses' rehash of the ideas of Arius. I am not sure of the point you want to make.

quote:

H O L Y
S P I R I T

The Bible

§ When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, he shall testify of me (John 15:26).

§ When he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8).

... etc. [skipping]

So they make that verse even broader than just the 2 person's of the trinity (God and Jesus). They find a bunch of other verses.


The Another Comforter is the first Comforter in another form.
There are not two Comforters in John's Gospel, but one.

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever. (v.16)

Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you. (v.17)

I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (v.18)

If you read carefully, you will see that the He of verse 17 suddenly becomes the I of verse 18. The coming of the "Another Comforter - the Spirit of reality" is the coming of Jesus who says -

" I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you."

So Jesus not leaving them as orphans but coming to them is exactly the sending of the Spirit of reality to them as "another Comforter" . Please notice that they knew this Person as abiding WITH them. But they are going to know Him as abiding IN them.

" ... but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you."

For three and one half years the man Jesus of Nazareth had abode WITH the disciples. They travel, slept, ate, walked and worked with Him. He was physically WITH them. But soon after His resurrection, He will abide IN them as the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of reality.

" I will not leave you as orphans; I AM COMING TO YOU."

So mysteriously, the second Comforter is the first Comforter in His form as the Spirit.
So mysteriously, the "another Comforter" is the first Comforter not leaving them as orphans but coming to them.

I showed before that Jesus told them that He and His Father as the Divine " We " were coming to make an abode in His lovers (John 14:23) . The Trinity is about God dispensing Himself into man.

In the book of Romans Jesus Christ is located in two places. He is at the right hand of God interceding for the believers (Rom. 8:34). But He is also indwelling the believers (v. 10).

The Christ who lives within them - "But if Christ is in you ..." (v.10) is also the One at the right hand of God in the third heavens praying for them - " Christ Jesus ... who is raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (v.34)

God can distribute Christ Jesus Himself in His form as the Spirit of reality and "another Comforter" into millions of people. This is wonderful.

What the Jehovah's Witnesses will not tell you - because they have no experience of it and do not believe, is that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit. So says the New Testament.

" And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. " (v.17)

While the Jehovah Witnesses really want to stay in the Old Testament, they will talk about the Third of the Triune God - the Holy Spirit in terms of a force or power. But the New Testament says "And the Lord is the Spirit"

There is no question that "the Lord" there means Jesus. In the next chapter we read - " For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord ..." (4:5) . So the Lord Christ Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Or the Holy Spirit is Jesus in a form in which Jesus can be received into our hearts. That is Jesus can come and live in us. We can receive Jesus the Lord into our innermost spiritual being.

I prayed " Lord Jesus, I receive You. " In fact I continue to open up my whole being to receive Him into every part of my soul. So I need no reincarnation. I need to allow the one Perfect Life - the Lord Jesus to make His home in my heart through faith.

" That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith." (Eph. 3:17)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 12:34 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 9:39 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 103 of 230 (777272)
01-28-2016 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by LamarkNewAge
01-28-2016 9:39 AM


Re: Your Romans quote.
quote:
It does not back up the idea that Jesus was God, especially not from an at-conception incarnation.

When we say Jesus is God we do not mean to say Jesus was not a man.
In Jesus there is the mingling of God and man.

When we say Jesus is a man or the Son of Man we do not mean that Jesus is not God.

In Jesus there is the mingling of God with man. The 14th chapter of John begins -

"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me."

Believe in God, says this man. Then believe also in or into Him. This is God going through a kind of process to dispense God INTO man. This is about a journey of God branching out and branching INTO human beings.

His eternal purpose is that God and man would be mingled as one.
The Head of this dispensing of God into man is Jesus Christ. Therefore He is not only called the only begotten Son of God but also "the Firstborn among many brothers" (Rom. 8:29)

You can read more about this 'Economy of God" at www.godseconomy.org.

quote:

It talks about the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ.

Yes, Second Corinthians said both "the Lord is the Spirit" and it also said "the Spirit of the Lord". It is by the "life giving Spirit" that God can come into us to be our life.

You know He had to go to the cross to shed His redeeming blood. For the barrier between fallen man and God is the obstacle of our sins. Our sins have made a separation. God is perfect in holiness and perfect in righteousness. And Jesus said He would go to the cross to make a place for us to be able to get into God.

" Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me. In My Father's house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go and prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be." (John 14:1-3)

He wants us to know that not only He can enjoy this mingling of the Divine and the human, but we also can be saved and brought into this enjoyment. If it were the case that only He could be one with God - why He would have told us.

His going away here is not going to Heaven to fix up mansions there. It is His going away to His death on Calvary to prepare a way for us sinners to be brought into God as well.

His coming again to receive us to Himself is related to His coming into the believers to make an abode with them in verse 23.

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (v.23)

This is the same word in the plural form which is found in verse 2 - "In My Father's house are many ABODES [plural]" (v.2) . The singular is found in verse 23 where He says He and His Father will come and make AN ABODE [singular] with His lovers.

" ... We will come to him and make an ABODE with him." (v.23)

Everything I shared with you from Romans 8 is consistent with this teaching of Jesus. The Father and the Son as the Divine "WE" come to indwell the believers in Jesus.

The Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ = Christ Himself = the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

When I received Jesus, God became real to me. I could not say I KNEW God before I received Jesus and the forgiveness of sins which came WITH receiving Jesus.

quote:

You say they were used interchangeably.

Jehovah's Witnesses rehash Arius?


To the Jehovah Witnesses Jesus Christ is the same as Michael the archangel. They vehemently deny that God became a man. Essentially, they want to go back to a Law keeping Old Testament. And the Law to the Watchtower Society really has to do with going door to door and preaching JW doctrines.

There is nothing wrong with going door to door to preach if it is not wrong preaching and teaching. But going door to door teaching that Jesus is the archangel Michael and not the Word Who was God and WAS God, is rebellion against Jehovah.

Jesus said after His resurrection that the disciples would be HIS ... witnesses -

" ... and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8b)

Jesus is Jehovah become a man. Jesus is the mingling of God and man. And He came not only that we could have forgiveness through redemption, but that we also might be the continuation of God dispensing Himself into man.

quote:

Are you sure JW use the same arguments?

Same argument as what ?? The JWs do not believe Jesus is God.
The JWs do not believe that Holy Spirit is God.
The JWs teach that the Son of God - Jesus, is the archangel Michael.
And many wrong things they teach because really rather than witnessing for Jehovah God they are in rebellion against the revelation of Jehovah God in Christ.

That is enough JW bashing.

quote:

I have no clue.

Its irrelevant.

So that Romans chapter 8 is your evidence that there was an incarnation.


It is not my ONLY biblical evidence. I used it because it is experiencial fellowship proving that Paul and his audience were enjoying the indwelling of Christ which was the indwelling of God. This is the normal Christian life.

I didn't say it was necessarily the typical Christian life. But it is the normal Christian life. God is seeking to recover this enjoyment among His believers in Christ.

quote:

If we see mentioned a "spirit of God" and a "spirit of Christ" in the same verse then that proves that not only did Paul think Jesus to be God, but there was a spermless incarnation at conception?

The incarnation was a miracle in which that which was begotten in the virgin woman was of the Holy Spirit. No human father was involved. God as a child was conceive within her. He had two natures - the nature of the Divine and the nature of the human. He was and is God-man.

He had to be Man in order to be able to die.
He had to be God to make the effectiveness of that death have eternal efficacy.

He was God by way of incarnation.
The saved become sons of God by way of His salvation.
Both matters are about the eternal plan of God becoming one entity with His creature human beings.

As I spoke before, by excising John, belittling it from the rest of the New Testament, you lose some of this profound truth. Jesus came to make us as He is though He remains the HEAD of this corporate entity and the saved - the Body.

John 12:24 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies it abides alone; but IF IT DIES ... IT BEARS MUCH FRUIT." [my emphasis]

I think you should read aloud a chapter of the Gospel of John first thing in the morning until you've re-made a place in your heart for John's revelation. Just a thought. Maybe some good sounding yet wrong notions have been too much put into your mind by people like Bart Erhman.

Did you ever see Peter say - " As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation." ( 1 Pet. 2:2) ?

Taste the pure word. Feed your inner hunger and thirst with the pure word.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 9:39 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 4:17 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 105 of 230 (777304)
01-28-2016 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by LamarkNewAge
01-28-2016 4:17 PM


Re: Your Romans quote.
quote:
If you keep falling back on the Gospel of John (and very exclusively so, considering Romans is the topic) to support a Hindu type of God-in-the-womb incarnation, then you will be left with a Jehovah's Witness type of Christological situation for most, if not all, of the first century AD.

God incarnating as a man is in John's Gospel. I hope you're not expecting any kind of apology for referring to John. I'll certainly continue using John.

However, before John by many centuries, the prophet Isaiah told us that God would be incarnated in Isaiah 9:6.

"For a child is born to us, A son is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder;

And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. "(Isa. 9:5)

There are two lines in this prophecy. The "child ... born" is called "Mighty God". And the "son ... given" is called "Eternal Father".

The little child who was conceived and was in the womb of Mary for nine months was the Mighty God. The "Mighty God" became a born child. And the "son" was the manifestation of the "Eternal Father".

This is long before John wrote - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) And then in verse 14 - "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as an only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality."

Before God spoke through the apostle John that the Logos with God and Who was God became flesh, God spoke through Isaiah that a born child would be called Mighty God and a given Son would be called "Eternal Father" .

By the time we come to Romans this God Who has incarnated has been dispensed into His believers as "the Spirit of God" Who is "the Spirit of Christ" and is "Christ" .

To fight against this people have to begin to splice off parts of the Bible here and there claiming that they are not suppose to be there. So you have done with the Gospel of John and other books.

Perhaps, you will next begin to reason that Isaiah 9:6 also should not be there. But it is better to simply say "Amen" to what God has revealed through His apostles and prophets.

quote:

You attacked Jehovah's Witnesses for not accepting the Holy Spirit as a separate member of the God-head, but in the same breath you interpreted two separate members of the Godhead (God and Jesus)Romans 9 as having just one spirit. You essentially took a (sort of)modalistic type of interpretation.

You are incorrect here. I charge the Jehovah Witnesses for not teaching like the Bible, that "the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17). The Holy Spirit to them is only a force.

As for two "separate" members of the Godhead, you apparently did not listen when I said the Father and the Son are distinct but not separate.

quote:

Here is Romans 8

quote:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Sometimes the translators are not sure whether a capital "S" should be used for "spirit" or a small "s". The Recovery Version which is my favorite among a number of good English versions, has a small "s" in verse 4.

It reads "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit."

The small "s" - spirit means the HUMAN spirit. And it is small s because it is contrasted with the fallen human flesh. IE. " ... not walk according to the [human] flesh but according to the [human] spirit."

The contrast between the two is nicely observed in John 6 where Jesus is speaking of the new birth - to be born again or born from above -

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6) .

The new birth takes place in the innermost part of man - his human spirit. The human spirit is comatose and deadened. And when we receive the Lord Jesus into our heart the human spirit is born of the Holy Spirit Who is God Himself - "That which is born of the [human] flesh is flesh" in the first natural birth from our human parents. In the second birth, in being "born again" the comatose and deadened human spirit is born of the Spirit of God. The small s spirit of man is born of the capital S Spirit - " ... and that which is born of the Spirit is [human] spirit"

So the Apostle Paul says in Romans that he served God in his (Paul's) regenerated human spirit. That means his innermost kernel of his being which had been born again - born of the Spirit -

"For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the gospel of His Son" (Rom. 1:9a)

You see? Paul serves God with HIS - Paul's human spirit .

He serves God in the Holy Spirit by means of serving God in his born again human spirit. And it is the regenerated human spirit that he probably refers to when he writes - " ... do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit." (Rom. 8:4)

In the same chapter the two spirits - the human spirit and the Holy Spirit, are seen as the latter bears witness with the former in verse 16 -

" The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (v.16)

Here you have "The [capital S] Spirit Himself" meaning the Holy Spirit - the Third of the Trinity. And you have "our [small s] spirit" meaning the human spirit which has been born of God.

It is a tremendous thing to discover that we have another part of our being that can be BORN of God called our human spirit.

So our human spirit can be born of the capital S Spirit (John 3:6).
And then we know that we are children of the Father. And we know that we know because - "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit ..." .

When the human spirit is BORN of the Holy Spirit then the two become mingled as one spirit. That is why it is rather difficult for the translators because the Bible is talking about a mingled spirit - the Holy Spirit made to be joined to our human spirit -

" He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit " (1 Cor. 6:17) .

How can Jesus Christ come and live in us ? He can become "one spirit" so that there is an "organic" union between Himself and us. He can bear witness with our spirit because He has joined Himself with our spirit to be "one spirit".

So the translation of the Recovery Version reads this way in verse 9 and 10. Notice the small s to indicate the born again HUMAN spirit -

"But you are not in the flesh but in the [human] spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of Him. (v.9)

But if Christ is in you, though the [human] body is dead because of sin, the [regenerated human] spirit is life because of righteousness." (v.10)

I will continue below with the human spirit and the Holy Spirit - being JOINED to become "one spirit". But this too is the mingling of God and man.

quote:

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Here again, the RcV has been very helpful and translates this -

"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (v.6)

Because the mind set on the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither can it be." (v.7)

And those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (v.8) .

The bottom line here:

1.) We need to have our comatose and deadened human spirit BORN of the Holy Spirit.

2.) We need to experience the Holy Spirit bearing witness with our new regenerated spirit that we are indeed "organically" children of God, whom we can now call "Abba Father" or like "Daddy".

3.) We need to serve God in our regenerated spirit as Paul did.

4.) We need then to set our mind on our born again spirit where the Lord Jesus is JOINED to us as "one spirit" .

Now you may know that the final words of a man are very important. And so the final words of the Apostle Paul is to Timothy. And it is that the Lord Jesus Christ is WITH Timothy's spirit. This he never wants Timothy to forget. Thus Paul's final word in his epistles -

" The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." ( 2 Tim. 4:22)

His younger co-worker must never forget that the living Lord Jesus Christ is WITH his spirit - his innermost nucleus of his whole being. There in his regenerated spirit is the enjoyment, the empowering, the life of Christ and the grace of Christ by which he can live.

Timothy - Never forget - The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

The Lord Jesus Christ is with my spirit too.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 4:17 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 10:46 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 108 of 230 (777338)
01-29-2016 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by LamarkNewAge
01-28-2016 10:46 PM


Re: Lets get on with the issue of Romans 8
quote:
I will only start with the Jehovah's Witness issue because you keep using this group to sidestep the actual issue (which I can assure you, I will keep returning to).

Let's get one thing clear. I am not sidestepping anything. I may be limited on the TIME I have to address multiple issues you raise.

There are matters you raise which I have not yet spoken to. And there are matters I raised of which you have not yet spoken to. I don't therefore automatically charge you with "sidestepping".

quote:

me:
I charge the Jehovah Witnesses for not teaching like the Bible, that "the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17). The Holy Spirit to them is only a force.

you:
I suspect that they say the Holy Spirit is the same as God ... ,


You'll have to go read about their belief. All I point out is that Jesus is not God mingled with man to them and the Holy Spirit is only an energy or force and not God Himself.

We may get into modalism or "seems like" modalism in relation to what I wrote.
If I said that WHILE the Son is, the Father is NOT that would be modalism.
If I said that WHILE the Holy Spirit is, the Father and the Son are NOT, that would be modalism.

If I said each one of the Trinity was only in existence at one time so that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were not simultaneously existing, that would be modalism.

If you're prone to looking into this more so that I do not have to write a book here, I recommend this reading:

Modalism, Tritheism, or the Pure Revelation of the Triune God According to the Bible by Ron Kangus

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/...oklets/modalism.html

Mind you, I do not supply this reading because I think you know nothing about Modalism. I supply it because I think it focuses on the charge of Modalism to those who suspicion it when I speak of verses like 1 Cor. 15:45 or John 1:1,14. These verses say something about One of the Triune God became the other.

quote:

I imagine that they consider the Holy Spirit as something like God having the ability to think in multiple places at once. Sort of like a modalism of God. A temporary office or mode of operation. I have never looked into it though.

See the link above as far as what I wrote.

quote:

You seemed to use Romans 8:9 in a similar modalism. You said that the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God were the same thing.

Read a clarification above - http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/...oklets/modalism.html-

quote:

me:

The JWs do not believe that Holy Spirit is God.

you:
You also said they think Jesus is Michael.


That is right.
I am going to search for your comments more related to what I believe about the New Testament revelation.

quote:

You seem to keep dodging Romans 8, though you were eager to mention it earlier (it made up almost 98% of the text in your post #94).

The most important thing I said about Romans 8 was that there is no discernible difference in the Christian's experience between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The person who receives the Spirit of Jesus Christ cannot detect any separation between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. And Paul's speaking of the indwelling Spirit in verses 9 - 11 bear that out.

Do you know God ?

You have given a lot of information about Polycarp and Clement and Paul and Bart Erhman and Arius and other things. What about your own experience of God Himself. Do you have the confidence that you can say you know God ?

I am looking for a Yes or a No or a "I don't really know."
I can say that I experience what Paul is speaking of in Romans 8:9-11. I know what he is talking about there - subjectively, experiencially and even corporately with others of the practical church life I daily enjoy.

I can detect absolutely no difference or separation in this indwelling Spirit of God. He is the Spirit of Christ and is even Jesus Christ Himself.

I brought in isaiah to prove that the incarnation of God as a man was prophesied long before the writing of the New Testament. It was not a dodge. It is relevant.

quote:

Here is what you said back when you were eager to bring it up.

me:
You have Romans in your list of "authentic" letters of Paul.
So you have no problem with saying these are Paul's thoughts.

Now let's go to the 8th chapter of Romans. Here we do not see a systematic theological formal. But we do see his "shop talk". In other words he is speaking of the experience of his audience.

In speaking of the experience of his audience Paul uses, seamlessly and enterchangeably some titles -

The Spirit of God
The Spirit of Christ
Christ
The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead,

Notice how, in speaking of the Christians' enjoyment and subjective experience, he moves from one title to the the next without taking a breath. Each title speaks of the One who indwells the believers.

"But you are not in the flesh. but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Romans 8:9-11)

Once again. A statement of systematic theology this is not. But it is "shop talk" in which his audience seems is suppose to perfectly understand that -

Christ is the Spirit of Christ.
Christ is the Spirit of God.
Christ is also the Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead.

It is not FOUR separated Persons who indwell the believers. It is One mysterious Person with interchangeable titles, for man's enjoyment. For Paul the Spirit of God is Christ. And He is also the One Who raised Jesus from the dead.

This verse is about the experience of the Trinity as an indwelling One giving divine life.
My God is the Man Jesus Christ. And He is able to dispense Himself into us.

LNR:

Then I pointed out that heresy hunters


I am not a "heresy hunter". I am interested in the revelation of the Bible.
I am not hunting for what is wrong with someone's beliefs.
I am searching for what helps me to increase my enjoyment of the Christ Who came into my life many years ago. I am seeking to know Christ deeper and the Bible in the way of life deeper.

That is why I wrote previously that that was enough of Jehovah Witness bashing.
I am not that interested in arguing with or about the Jehovah Witnesses.
I did mention something , granted. But I am more interested in discussing Romans and John and the revelation Paul unveiled with the other New Testament writers.

And you may get frustrated because I have no intention of driving several books of the New Testament out of it. If speaking of these things, for you, precludes that we do not mention certain NT books like letters to Timothy, the Gospel of John, or Colossians or other books of the NT, we might as well not converse.

If you say "But John is not the word of God because Bart Erhman says this or that" then I won't go along with that. Every Bible scholar doesn't agree with Bart Erhman.

=======================================
Bart Erhman verses Craig Evans on Does the New Testament Misquote Jesus ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7gmgdk9qG8

Bart Erhman verses Simon Gathercole on How Jesus Became God

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W08JXrm8ioc

Bart Erhman vs James Whilte on Does the NT Misquote Jesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-4HGcksXiY

Bart Erhman verses Derroll Bock on Was the New Testament Forged

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKQnRCjG5XY

Bart Erhman verses William Lane Craig on Historical Evidence for Risen Jesus ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2NEiW69G-0

There is no shortage of educated Bible scholars who can stand up to Bart Erhman.

Now I cut this post here not having addressed everything you wrote.
Maybe you can give me some hours to catch up. Time is a limitation today.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 10:46 PM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 109 of 230 (777342)
01-29-2016 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by LamarkNewAge
01-28-2016 10:46 PM


Re: Lets get on with the issue of Romans 8
f LNR,

I will have to take responses in smaller manageable pieces. Maybe its me, but you're confusing me a bit.

quote:
You simply took the "Spirit of God" and the "Spirit of Christ" from Romans 8:9 and said they were the same thing.

That's right. The titles refer to the SAME wonderful Triune God. It is through the Holy Spirit that God finally reaches a man's inner being. It is as Spirit that Father and Son can come to indwell the believers as the Divine "We" of John 14:23.

That it is profound and very difficult to fully explain, I admit.

Look, God from the creation of man, wanted to come INTO man to be MINGLED with man to be man's eternal life. We HAVE to get the big picture from time to time. We have to.

quote:

That is not an orthodox Trinitarian position. The typical position, as the councils obsessed over, was to see those as separate entities.

We could get into slinging around quotations from the early church "fathers". And we will see that often it depends on who you're quoting. And sometimes teachers were simultaneously charged with a bad teaching and the very opposite bad teaching.

I would rather refer to the Scriptures and what I know I have experienced.
God was never real to me before I received the Lord Jesus Christ into my innermost being. I could talk about God. I could philosophies about God. I could debate about God. And I could grope on what was meant by "God" anyway. But I could not call "Abba Father, my own dear Father. Papa ! Abba Father" to God because I simply did not KNOW God.

In the journey of God imparting Himself into us the Holy Spirit is the last stage. He reaches us in our human spirit as the Third of the Triune God. What the Trinity IS can never be separated from what the Trinity DOES. And what He does is dispense God into man. We have to receive Jesus Christ.

The Spirit of Jesus coming into my spirit made God subjectively real to me.
I am a part of that audience that Paul speaks to. And there the indwelling Christ is the indwelling Spirit of God.

quote:

You seemed to think that the fact that they were mentioned in a single verse somehow made them the exact same spirit.

I am going to guess that you are bothered by what you consider a not legitimate usage of the book of Romans. In a nutshell, I think that that is what you may be complaining about.

How, can I use Romans 8:9-11 to say that God became incarnated as a man ? Is that your problem ?

I would hope that you can see that "The Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead" would mean God the Father. Then the question is :

Besides the Christ being the indwelling one in the saved is there ANOTHER indwelling one called "The Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead" ? If you answer YES, then you have TWO Spirits indwelling the Christians.

To make matters more confusing, if you say beside those TWO you also have "the Spirit of God" indwelling the saved, then you have THREE indwelling the Christians. If you add to this puzzle another indwelling one called "the Spirit of Christ" living in the believers, then you have FOUR Spirits in them.

But what we have is the Triune God indwelling men through Christ's salvation.

In Romans 5:10 Paul writes this:

" For if we being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom 5:10)

Grasp what is going on here. The believers were RECONCILED to God through the death of God's Son - Jesus. But there is something MUCH MORE to take place. Having been reconciled by Christ's redemptive death, they are to be MUCH MORE saved in the realm of His life.

" ... much more we will be saved in His life"

This is forgiven in His death and afterward saved in the sphere of Him being alive and living in us. We, being justified; being reconciled in a judicial sense now must much more be "organically" saved in our personality in the realm of His life. We are ONE with His LIFE.

Does this mean that Jesus is God? Yes. Man's problem in the fall is that he is ALIENATED from the life of God.

" Being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance which is in them, because of the hardness of their heart." (Eph. 4:18)

The "life of God" is so subjective TO God. The "life of God" cannot be separated from God Himself. To receive Christ as life and be saved in the realm of His available life is to no longer ... be "alienated from THE LIFE OF GOD" .

Now I hear you protest perhaps - IE. "You referred to Ephesians. You are dodging and not STICKING to Romans."

I am referring to another book - Ephesians. Why not? Both are written by the Apostle Paul.

It should be welcomed. Afterall we read of salvation the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus in Romans 8:2 -

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed me from the law of sin and of death." (8:2)

That is the the same as being saved from being "alienated from the life of God". That is the same as being "saved in His life" . By imparting the resurrected and available Jesus Christ into our being we can enjoy being mingled with God - mingled with Jesus Christ. We need such "much more" .

This New Testament is about God becoming a man to die for our reconciliation and then dispensing Himself into us that we be saved in the sphere and realm of His life.
What the ... ...

its 11 O'Clock already !! Sorry have to go for awhile.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 10:46 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-29-2016 9:39 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 7:40 AM jaywill has taken no action

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 111 of 230 (777368)
01-29-2016 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by NoNukes
01-29-2016 2:28 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
Romans 4:17 does not state that Abraham believed that God quickened the dead. Paul is the one that says that God quickens the dead. You quoted way too little of the context.
---------------------------------------------------------
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
---------------------------------------------------------

Paul believes in the God of Abraham, the God who quickens the dead.


Of course Paul believes in the God of Abraham, a God Who gives life to the dead.
But the context suggests that Abraham believed in this life giving and resurrecting God.

"[Abraham] ... not weakening in faith, he considered his own body as already dead, being about one hundred years old, as well as the deadening of Sarah's womb ... " (v.19)

Two matters here were a trial to Abraham's faith:

1.) His own body - AS ALREADY DEAD

2.) His wife's body - THE DEADENING OF SARAH'S WOMB.

Perhaps you will argue that this is not real physical death. I would agree that they are still breathing. However. death, inability, weakness are drawing the two nearer and nearer to actual physical death.

What was Abraham's experience with his own body being as good as dead and the deadening of Sarah's womb? It was witnessing God's power of life to give them a child. By this he was prepared for an even more drastic dealing, the potential physical death of Isaac.

This is the God in whom he believed, God who gives life to the dead ...
Continuing with "context" as you wish ...

"But with regard to the promise of God, he did not doubt in unbelief, but was empowered by faith, giving glory to God and being fully persuaded that what He had promised He was able to also to do." (v.21)

I feel that the attitude expressed in verse 21 covers not only his seeing the fulfillment of the birth of a son. It also was his attitude in his obedience in offering UP this son whom God had given him.

If someone wants to protest - "Hey! We don't see all THAT when we read Genesis" that's ok. Some of us can appreciate it, if eventually but not at first.
And we don't feel here we are being fanciful or just imagining things into Scripture.

The problem of death and deadening became stronger to Abraham, testing the depth of his hope in God.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 01-29-2016 2:28 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by NoNukes, posted 01-30-2016 6:25 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 118 of 230 (777398)
01-30-2016 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by LamarkNewAge
01-29-2016 9:39 PM


Re: Lets get on with the issue of Romans 8
quote:
Paul taught that Jesus was the same substance as God or not in this chapter?

In Romans 8 The Spirit of God is Christ indwelling the Christians.

" ... if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you ... " (See vs.9,10)

Christ is God.

Christ is the Spirit of God dispensed into the saved man.
Christ is the Spirit of Christ dispensed into the saved man making him "of Him"

"Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him" (v.9b)

In my past I received Jesus Christ and became "of Him" . I definitely got to realize that to know Christ was to know God.

quote:

We are talking about different issues. We are talking about the 7 authentic letters of Paul and whether they teach that Jesus was a fleshly human from an at conception incarnation of God. We aren't talking about the 100 AD Gospel of John or even Matthew.

All 27 books in my New Testament I count as "authentic".
All 27 do not all mention the same things.

It is true that the virgin birth is not specifically mentioned in Romans.
Colossians which I may understand WHY you want to dismiss as not Paul's teaching, says that the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ.

"For in Him [Christ] all the fullness was pleased to dwell" (Col. 1:19)

"For in Him [Christ] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (2:9)

That explains why I met God on the day I received the Spirit of Christ by calling on the Lord to take me. Once again - "the Spirit of God" was interchangeably used for "the Spirit of Christ" which was also "Christ" HIMSELF in Romans 8:9-11.

Forget about me not counting Colossians as authentic.
You can also forget about me not regarding John or Matthew as being in the New Testament as God speaking to man.

quote:

Anyway, here is what Paul said.

quote:
NRSV
Romans 8
3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit


Okay. And this Jesus has a way to impart Himself into those who believe in Him.
He does this so that He may be their life - compounding God into man, once man has been justified through His redemption.

He becomes a spontaneous "law of the Spirit of life" moving and operating in the forgiven sinner. Then we can live by Christ, not by imitation but in a joined and mingled way.

In the same chapter Paul speaks of the liberating power of this indwelling Person -

"For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." (v.2 Recovery Version)

It is actually kind of "scientific". Christ having come INTO a man's inner being is like the law of gravity. It is spontaneous and never failing. It is powerful automatic. The Christians, however, must learn to set his mind on his regenerated human spirit.

Remember, I quoted Paul's authentic final exhortation to Timothy - "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you" (2 Tim. 4:22) .

Set your mind on the born again spirit Timothy. That is where the Lord is. That is where the empower grace of the Lord is. You must learn a new way of living. When Jesus came into you you realized that there was another unknown dimension to your life. You had a spirit deep within. The Lord is with your spirit acting spontaneously as an automatic "law of the Spirit of [Divine] life" .

This is God living in man.

quote:
....
7For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed it cannot, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him


As I said in another post, I agree with the translators of the rendering that the human spirit [small s] is contrasted to the human flesh in verse 9.

"But you are not in the [human] flesh but in the [human regenerated] spirit ... "

In other words - "Your human spirit has been made alive. You are now in that realm, having and living with a born again human spirit."

The Holy Spirit, Who is God and Who is Christ in a most mysterious way, is with the human spirit. So Paul's utterance includes both -

" But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you ... Christ in you ... " (see vs.9,10)

Now. this audience can also say "The Lord is with our spirit."
The Lord is with the Christians' spirit and Christ as a law of life can spontaneously free them from the law of sin and of death - IF we learn to set out mind upon our spirit where the Christ is.

I am learning.

quote:

He was talking about Jesus and God BOTH from verse 3 on.

That is correct. And as I said the two are distinct - Jesus Christ and God the Father, yet they are not SEPARATED because in verse 9 the Spirit of God in them is Christ in them in verse 10. He is with their regenerated spirit.

" ... if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you ... the spirit is life because of righteousness."

I am not "grasping at straws." I am grasping though, at pearls, diamonds, gold.
God wants to dispense Himself into man to be lived out from within man.
To do so, FIRST He had to justify sinners through Christ's death on the behalf of sinners.

When we believe in the Son of God, the innermost human spirit is Divine Life because the Righteous One comes into our forgive, reconciled, and justified being. And the human spirit IS life because of righteousness.

" But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the [human] spirit is life because of righteousness. "

I know God now - because of righteousness.
I know Christ in ME now - because of righteousness.
God is no longer merely "up there" or "out there" or "far above somewhere" in a purely objective matter. Rather God has come into me. And His life acts as a powerful righteous living "law of the Spirit of life" spontaneously operating within - AS I learn more and more to set my mind on my spirit.

Since this is a life long lesson of learning a new way to live, we are reminded that "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." ( 2 Tim. 4:22)

You cannot get any more "authentic" then that. Don't be cheated by someone trying to rob you of experiencing of God by turning you away from New Testament books.
We can LIVE God. We MUST live God.

Put another way - God wants to live on the earth again, but this time within men and women who receive Jesus Christ - His redeeming death and His victorious resurrection and coming as "life giving Spirit"

"the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45)

I haven't forgotten about your birth of Christ matter. I hope to get to it below.

quote:

Both were the subject. He went from discussing God's spirit to discussing the issue of Jesus. Romans 8 was in between Paul teaching that Jesus and the new Christian religion was superior to "the law" or the old Jewish religion.

Paul is teaching that Jesus Himself is a LAW. Jesus being imparted into man is "the law of the Spirit of life". It is Jesus living within which is more powerful than the law of sin and death.

In the previous chapter 7 there is a cry of condemnation - SELF condemnation -

"Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death ? " .

He is in a terrible dilemma of defeat, weakness, hypocrisy, longing to be right with God but lacking the life power to do so. This is almost all of chapter 7. The law of sin and death drags him down even though his mind agrees with the law of God. In the end he cries out in self condemnation which goes along with the condemnation of God.

" Wretched man that I am! WHO ... will deliver me from the body of this death?

Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord !

Jesus Christ will deliver Him. Christ will deliver Him as explained in chapter 8. Christ will be a stronger law; a more powerful law; a higher law - "the law of the Spirit of life ... in Christ Jesus." .

Because Christ is liberating from WITHIN Paul now rejoices and teaches the Christian to do so -

"There is now NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." (8:1,2)

Jesus living in me has freed me from "Oh WRETCHED MAN THAT I AM!"
Jesus living in me is stronger than my sinful nature.
I am learning to set my mind on my spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is; where the grace of the Lord is and where a higher more powerful LAW OF CHRIST'S LIFE dwells in me.

We have to ask the Lord to bring us into Christ Jesus - bring is into God Himself.
We should want to be "OF HIM"

" ... if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not OF HIM." (v.9b)

We're grasping not at straws LNR, but at rubies and diamonds. Don't you want to experience living by Jesus Christ ? Here's the way.

quote:

He was simply mentioning the Jesus Christ issue as an issue of God's current revelation.

Paul was truly pioneering deep into the experience of allowing Christ to live in him.
That is why God used Paul to write some 13 or 14 of the 27 New Testament books.
You're being cheated by people leading you to believe you can discard some of them.

quote:

Why is it that Romans doesn't have a single mention of the spermless incarnation? Romans 9:5 aside (since the translation is disputed), why didn't Paul mention the issue of Jesus being God.

I don't know ANYTHING about a "spermless incarnation". I said that no human father was involved.

How this happen, we do not know. But Jesus did not become a man by directly descending down from heaven. He was conceive miraculously by the Holy Spirit and stayed in the womb of Mary for nine months.

That Paul does not talk a lot about the birth in Romans I agree. He mentions Christ is out of the seed of David. Mary was related to David.

I think that my point was the Jesus is God because the indwelling Spirit of God is the indwelling of Christ. Once again, in Romans Christ is located by Paul at the right hand of God in heaven (8:34) and in those who receive Christ (vs. 9 -11)

The Spirit of God is The Spirit of Christ is Christ Himself.
This indwelling One Whom the believers have received is also the indwelling "Spirit of the one Who raised Jesus from the dead."

God the Father is said to have raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24,32; 3:15,26; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30; Romans 4:24;10:9) to mention a few verses.

quote:

Remember the Da Vinci Code obsession of fundamentalists?

I never saw the whole movie and never read the book.
I do study the Bible and the 27 New Testament books are a gold mine to me.

My beliefs about the birth of Jesus are from the Gospels and the prophecy. Especially Isaiah 9:6 says that the child born is the incarnation of the Mighty God and the son given is the incarnation of the Eternal Father.

The Mighty God is Jehovah - " ... rely on Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob to the mighty God." (Isaiah 10:21)

"The Mighty One, God Jehovah speaks and summons the earth ..." (Psalm 50:1)

" ... O great and mighty God, whose name is Jehovah" (Jer. 32:18)

So the child born is Jehovah the Mighty God. It is Wonderful.
And the Son given is the Eternal Father. It is Wonderful.

The Eternal Father is also Jehovah -

"You, Jehovah, are our Father; Our Redeemer from of old [or everlasting] is Your name. ( Isaiah 63:16)

"But now, Jehovah, You are our Father ..." (Isaiah 64:8a)

"For thus says the high and exalted One [God], Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy ..." (Isaiah 57:15a)

We do not teach Modalism. We do affirm that Father - Son - Holy Spirit are the Triune God. And He is three-one for dispensing Himself into man to be man's life and to become united with His saved people.

quote:

Show me anywhere Paul (and his 7 authentic letters of Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Thessalonians, Philemon are most important) mentioned the virgin birth?

All the epistles of Paul in the New Testament I take as the oracles of God and as authentic.

The virgin birth is not expounded on by Paul.
Perhaps Galatians 4:4 may be an exception, saying God sent forth His Son born of a woman.

But generally, I don't think Paul speaks about the same event in detail as is mentioned in Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-56.

Do you have a verse from Paul contradicting the two accounts of the birth of Jesus mentioned in these two Gospels ?

He says Jesus is the man from heaven - " The first man is out of the earth, earthy, the second man is out of heaven." (1 Cor. 15:47)

quote:

The fact that jaywill is grasping at straws to defend the idea that Paul taught the incarnation should speak volumes to us.

It shows that he really has nothing to actually offer.


Your next post, I ask you to show Paul contradicting the story of the virgin birth.
And your next post, I ask you to mention some OTHER man Paul says was out of heaven.

And I can see why you have to fight against the book of Colossians, complaining that Paul didn't write it. That is because it says the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ bodily.

Every letter of Paul does not have to mention exactly the same thing.
And in Romans 8 the Spirit of God is Christ Himself.

quote:

Paul talked a lot about Jesus and he talked a lot about God.

And when he says the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ you have to insist that that is not what the Apostle Paul wrote.

Now we also have Paul talk about "God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior" (Titus 1:4) . And in the same authentic letter " our Savior God " ( 2:10) .

God our Father and Jesus Christ our Savior and our Savior God, he says.
Then again its "Jesus Christ our Savior" ( 3:6)

Jesus Christ our Savior is our Savior God.

quote:

Where is the incarnation? Why is it so hard to find?

It is not hard to find. It is only that every letter of Paul does not have to speak of exactly the same things. And the things you deny exist you do so by teaching that the Apostle Paul didn't write them.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-29-2016 9:39 PM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 119 of 230 (777414)
01-30-2016 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by LamarkNewAge
01-29-2016 10:00 PM


Re: Why didn't Paul mention the Holy Spirit conception of a virgin.
quote:

That Da Vinci Code obsession saw a tidal wave of apologetics.

I haven't followed the dispute over this.
I gather my faith in order to experience Christ as Lord from the Bible rather than Hollywood. I don't know much about your movie.

quote:

Was the spermless conception of Mary the mother of Jesus an import from India after Jesus was born (or after he died)? Was the incarnation just an import of an important doctrine from India?

No. And once again, the term "spermless conception" I have never heard before in my life. The Luke account and the Matthew account are clear that a human father was not involved in the birth of Jesus.

If Paul did not write anything about Jesus' mother Mary during that birth, that does not cause me to doubt Matthew 1:18-25 or Luke 1:26-56. Luke was Paul's traveling companion and historian of the early church. There no hint that there was some kind of major schism about this matter.

And again, First Corinthians does say that Jesus was the man ... out of heaven.

"The first man [Adam] is out of the earth, earthy; the second man [Christ, the last Adam] is out of heaven."

It doesn't alarm me that Paul does not labor on the virgin Mary. His traveling companion Luke the medical physician wrote of the virgin birth of this "man out of heaven. (See Luke 1:26-56).

Interestingly Luke ALSO tells us that Mary temporarily seemed to forget this miraculous birth, when He was twelve years old and found in the Jerusalem temple. And His mother Mary erroneously referred to Joseph as His father. The youth Jesus reminded them that His Father was God.

" And they saw Him, they were astounded; and His mother said to Him, Child, why have You treated us like this? Behold, Your father and I, being greatly distressed, have been seeking You.

And He said to them, Why is it that you were seeking Me? Did you nor know that I must be in the things of My Father?

And they did not understand the word which He spoke to them." (Luke 2:48-50)

The "man ... out of heaven" had God as His Father not Joseph (other than a legal sense). Mary was his mother though.

quote:

Was Krishna, the 8th Avatar of Vishnu, becoming an eternal persona in his own right (separate from Vishnu, whom he was said to be an incarnation of), the inspiration for the incarnation, virgin birth, and trinity doctrine?

No. But it seems the wishful thinking of some people.

quote:

There are many possibilities.

You may notice that I have balanced my responses to speak of God objectively with the subjective experience of God, indwelling the believers in Christ. This does frustrate some people. They want only to talk about God as an objective something to believe is somewhere rather removed from their experience.

I have spoken much about the INDWELLING of God as "the Spirit of God" Who is "Christ" Himself in Romans 8.

The Trinity is afterall for man's experience. It is a mistake to think of the Trinity as only a mental doctrine for debate. Here in Romans the three-one God is for indwelling - to be "in you" for your enjoyment and participation in God.

" But if Christ is in you though the body is dead because of sin, the [human] spirit is life because of righteousness.

And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to you mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Rom. 8:10-11)

This IS about the Trinity. But it is mostly about participation and enjoyment of the Trinity. It is about a corporate and subjective experience of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit to be an INDWELLING One Who gives His life to us.

He CAME that we might have life and have it abundantly.

" The thief does not come except to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life and have it abundantly. " (John 10:10)

He came that we might have life by giving Himself to us, to indwell us, that we may enjoy God as life. He became a "life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) this "man ... out of heaven."

quote:

Some possibilities are consistent with both the Hindu and Christian religions (and claims).

Can you show me something in Hindu sacred text which says that a man and God will come as a Divine "We" and make an abode with the believers in that man ?

" Jesus answered and said to him. If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

After your suspension, I ask that your next post to me will produce a parallel to this teaching from Hindu sacred text.

You can also show me something similar in Hinduism to this saying of Jesus.

"As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)

These verses are very emphatic. The way to get God into our very being is to "EAT" Jesus Christ. He lived because of God His Father and we can live by taking Him into us. He is so emphatic that He is the eternal God that He astounding drives the point home that His flesh and blood are food. And that food from heaven.

Where in Hindu text can you locate something like this?

"Jesus therefore said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life within you.

For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me and I in him.

As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me." (vs. 54 - 57)

I don't believe here that Jesus meant we literally eat His physical body and drink His physical blood. I do believe He is saying that we have to believe His incarnation as a man and receive Him as God come to us as a man.

This was God Himself in a man speaking - IE. I have come down as food. You have to eat my very incarnation.

quote:

But jaywill seems to be making the case that the incarnation was a late concept that Jesus and Paul knew nothing of.

No, jaywill didn't make that case. Paul saw no need to speak of the body of the mother of Jesus, Mary during the birth of Jesus. But his traveling companion, Luke the medical physician told us all about the virgin birth.

Possibly, Paul alluded to this in Galatians 4:4:

" But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a women, born under law." (4:4) .

But I wouldn't be to insistent about this meaning a virgin birth. God sending FORTH HIS SON who is "the man ... out of heaven" means to me God's incarnation as a man.

Luke alone was remaining with Paul near his martyrdom.

" Luke alone is with me... At my first defense no one was with me to support me, but all abandoned me. May it not be counted against them." (Second Timothy 4:11,16)

I get the impression that the physician Luke closely worked with Paul. If they had had a major disagreement about the origin of Jesus Christ, I don't think they would have been so close co-workers.

Furthermore, when Luke says on the side that Mary kept all these things in her heart, I think this is a window into how Luke consulted eyewitnesses about the origin of Jesus Christ.

" And all those who heard marveled at the things spoken to them by the angel.

But Mary kept all these things and pndered them in her heart." (Luke 2:18,19)

Luke did journalistic research on all the details of the earthly ministry of Jesus. Possibly Mary was one of his eyewitness sources for the birth of Jesus.

" Insomuch as many have undertaken to draw up a narrative concerning the matters which have been fully accomplished among us. Even as those who from the beginning became eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us,

It seemed food to me also, having carefully investigated all things from the first, to write them out for you in an orderly fashion, most excellent Theophilus,

So that you may fully know the certainty of the things concerning which you were instructed." (Luke 1:1-4)

My opinion is that in his investigative research Mary told him of her experiences and the of the things which she had treasured up in her heart and in her memory about Jesus.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-29-2016 10:00 PM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 120 of 230 (777422)
01-30-2016 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by NoNukes
01-30-2016 6:25 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
. I'll take that as an admission that your first post was wrong and that you are just trying to save another bad argument.

You can take it however you need to.
I take it as me tending to agree with the New Testament about Abraham and you tending towards disagreeing with it.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by NoNukes, posted 01-30-2016 6:25 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 01-30-2016 10:38 PM jaywill has taken no action

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 123 of 230 (777572)
02-03-2016 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by LamarkNewAge
02-03-2016 6:03 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
The Hebrews 11 logic seems related to the text of Paul in Romans 4. Paul wrote on the human sacrifice issue too. Paul, along with the Hebrews author, seems to have been straining to find an example of the afterlife in the patriarchal stories. It was a metaphor in Paul's eyes.

It seems like you are attempting to say reincarnation is a main teaching of the New Testament but resurrection isn't. But there are many more mentions of resurrection. And you have one dubious mention of a passage which you're recommending as about reincarnation.

Do you seriously expect NT readers to put more weight on evidence of reincarnation in the New Testament ?

quote:

The fact that Hebrews had to use a metaphorical teaching technique should speak volumes to us.

What kind of "volumes" do you think it speaks ?

It is ironic that you are eager to dismiss as metaphorical speaking, the instance of Hebrews 11 but insistent that no metaphorical speaking could be occurring when Jesus speaks of John the Baptist being Elijah. This is very selective of you with a obvious bias towards your favored interpretation.

Jesus looked out on the crowd sitting around Him and said that those who did the will of God were His mother, brothers and sisters.

"And someone said to Him, Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside to speak to You.

But He answered and said to him who spoke to Him, Who is My mother, and who are My brothers ? And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, Behold, My mother and My brothers!

For whoever does the will of My Father who is in the heavens, he is My brother and sister and mother." (Matt. 12:47-50)

This way of speaking was just as allegorical as Christ's speaking in Matt. 11:14 that John the Baptist (if they can receive it) was Elijah's coming. In neither case was Jesus speaking of reincarnation. In both cases allegorical speaking was used.

quote:

Jaywill rejects 2 Maccabees (just like he rejects the "Ethiopian" Book of Enoch) so Hebrews 11 is absent any literal Old Testament "Biblical" characters (or texts) in Hebrews 11 holding resurrection views.

You mean that I do not include them in the canon of the Hebrew Bible which is true.

There was much religious writing in the intertestamental time. Some spurious and false and other spiritual and sacred. And the New Testament writers make use of a few of possible references to them -

Jude 14-15 - Book of Enoch
- The Assumption of Moses

Second Timothy 3:8 - Possibly an allusion to the Penitance of Jannes and Jambres

The formula of "the Scripture says" or " It is written " is not used for these citations.

The continuity of the prophetic writings ended with the book of Malachi. And the evidence of this is:

1.) Malachi 4:5 said the next revelation from God would be just before the coming of the Messiah. And Zechariah 13:2-6 said there would be no true prophet in the intervening period.

2.) In the intertestamental period no prophet after Malachi is confirmed by First Mac. 4:45; 9:27; 14:41. Passages there say the people were waiting "until a prophet should arise".

The Manual of Discipline from the Qumran community in the years before Christ's birth similarly said they were looking for the "coming of a prophet".

3.) The Jewish historians Josephus said so. It also comes from the Talmud which stated - "After the latter prophets Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, the Holy Spirit departed from Israel".

Verification comes from the New Testament which never quotes a post- Malachi book as also uses the expression "from ... Abel to ... Zechariah" (Matt. 23:35) . The expression encompasses only the books from Genesis to ii Chronicals, the last book in the Jewish arrangement of the Hebrew Old Testament.

This information comes to me from the book A General Introduction to the Bible by Geisler and Nix published by Moody Press. The chapter is called Development and History of the Old Testament Canon.

It includes also a quote from a certain scholar Harris who wrote:

"The chain of prophets evidently wrote a chain of histories from Genesis through Nehemiah, and the writings of these prophets were accepted, one by one, through the centuries, until, when the Spirit of Prophecy departed from Israel, the canon was complete."

I don't reject books written during the Maccabean period as historically enlightening or even devotionally significant. I reject them as the oracles of God's inspired word, as Scripture.

quote:

Jesus mentioned reincarnation in more New Testament spots than the entire Old Testament (as protestants consider such) verses/spots covering resurrection beliefs.

Edited by jaywill, : Various typos in this post needed fixing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-03-2016 6:03 PM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 127 of 230 (777598)
02-04-2016 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by LamarkNewAge
02-03-2016 6:03 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
No text claiming to be Pauline (aside from the dubious(?)possibility of Romans 9:5 being correctly translated in the KJV, NIV, etc. - compare the NRSV translation) called Jesus God till 60 A.D. Colossians, assuming Paul wrote it (and I don't), was a (59-61 A.D.) "prison epistle" just like Philippians (which Paul did write for certain).

1.) No text claiming to be Pauline ... ?

First Timothy 1:1 -

"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope."

The claim to be a letter of Paul is evident.

2.) Paul, speaking of his past as a strict thiestic Pharisee, now confesses to us that he had committed blasphemy when persecuting the Christian church.

"Who formerly was a blasphemer ... but I was shown mercy because, being ignorant, I acted in unbelief." (See 1 Tim. 1:13)

A "blasphemer" is one who blasphemes God. When this Pharisee Saul of Tarsus was a persecutor of the Christian church he believed in God and was zealous for Judaism's tradition (Acts 22:3; Phil. 3:4-5) . As such a person he would never blaspheme Yahweh God. But he did speak evil things about the Lord Jesus.

Now he confesses that those evil things he spoke against Jesus Christ made him a "blasphemer". This proves that he believed in the deity of Christ. For him to persecute and speak evil against Christ was to commit the sin of blasphemy against God.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-03-2016 6:03 PM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2016 11:13 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 128 of 230 (777607)
02-04-2016 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by LamarkNewAge
02-03-2016 6:03 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
Jesus mentioned reincarnation in more New Testament spots than the entire Old Testament (as protestants consider such) verses/spots covering resurrection beliefs.

Take note:

" I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes into Me, even if He should die, shall live; ..." (John 11:25)

I would remind you that Jesus said that He WAS and IS "the resurrection" (John 11:25) . This is more than mention resurrection. This is to point absolutely to Himself as the resurrection.

Can you show us any sacred text with someone saying that he IS the reincarnation ?

Many teachers have said great things. But Jesus pointed to Himself and said He was the light of the world. Jesus pointed to Himself and said He was the bread of life. And Jesus pointed to Himself and said He was "the resurrection and the [divine] life"

The main part of Jesus' teaching was just Himself. Especially in John if you remove Jesus Himself you remove the main focus of the teaching of Jesus.

Did the founder of Hinduism tell the world that he WAS the reincarnation ?
I don't think so. Neither did Buddha say that he WAS the Nirvana. Other teachers of world religions came with doctrines which can be believed apart from who they were. But Jesus said the resurrection is Himself, the life is Himself, and the light was Himself.

He never spoke of reincarnation and He said He WAS "the resurrection" .

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-03-2016 6:03 PM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1215 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 131 of 230 (777622)
02-04-2016 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by ringo
02-04-2016 11:07 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Phat should inform you. You are skeptical about everything except your own skepticism.
I think you should be more skeptical about your own skepticism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ringo, posted 02-04-2016 11:07 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by ringo, posted 02-05-2016 10:50 AM jaywill has replied

  
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