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Author Topic:   Did Jesus teach reincarnation?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 230 (777658)
02-05-2016 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by jaywill
02-05-2016 12:23 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
Maybe you consider very much of the New Testament as a weak argument.

Cute.

The New Testament is a great argument for the concepts it teaches. However, some points of doctrine that various groups of Christians believe are essential, are not clearly taught in the New Testament. For those concepts, the New Testament provides ambiguous and sometimes contradictory answers. I've seen you and others twist in the wind and deny that some verses are contrary to some doctrines you insist on.

On the relationship between God and Jesus, we have verses that clearly present a Father and Son relationship between the two with strong indications of the two of them being separate, and other verses that are argued to say that Jesus is God. People differ on the interpretation of those verses.

I didn't mention Christianity at all. Christ said "Why do you persecute Me."

Here is what you actually said, jaywill. Message 127

jaywill writes:

2.) Paul, speaking of his past as a strict thiestic Pharisee, now confesses to us that he had committed blasphemy when persecuting the Christian church.

In short, you talked about Paul persecuting the Christian Church without quoting a single verse. Perhaps you actually meant to make a different argument. But even given the actual question, we know that what Paul actually did was to attack Christ followers for following Christ. We are still left with the problem that your definition of blasphemy being incorrect and in fact limited to directly attacking God's divinity for the sole purpose of making this argument.

Go with the discussion in that article then.
That is no loss to me personally.

But it seemed like you were still wavering about the article's points.

I was still wavering, at least for the purpose of this discussion. It turns out that the actual evidence that Paul believed that Jesus was God is rather thin. The actual best verse I saw quoted in the article is the argument that Paul called Jesus the Creator. I also spent some time online looking at other arguments.

In the end, I conclude that even if Paul's opinion is not conclusive, Paul is just one opinion and my own opinion does not change just because of what I can or cannot find Paul to say.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by jaywill, posted 02-05-2016 12:23 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Admin, posted 02-05-2016 9:56 AM NoNukes has seen this message
 Message 142 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2016 9:41 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 230 (777659)
02-05-2016 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by jaywill
02-05-2016 12:23 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
Tell me about the best argument that causes you to accept Jesus' divinity.

I thought I would address this question more directly. There are separate questions about whether Jesus is divine and whether he is Yahweh. In my opinion Jesus divinity is unquestioned, and Paul is clear about that. What is less clear are the details of how that divinity works. In short what is at question is not the divinity of Jesus, but the nature of the Trinity at a level of detail that I personally find unimportant and probably not resolvable to my own satisfaction.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by jaywill, posted 02-05-2016 12:23 AM jaywill has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 230 (777717)
02-06-2016 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by jaywill
02-06-2016 9:41 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
Would you give me an example of where I twisted in the wind some verses contrary to some doctrine I insisted on ?

No. It was not a productive thing to say and I should not have made the comment. I apologize for saying it.

The discussion I have labored on and will probably do so again, shows that though Father, Son and Spirit are distinct, they are not separate.

That is what you are attempting to show. It is a matter of opinion as to whether you have been successful. I don't believe it is possible to make the showing you are attempting, so lack of success is not completely your fault. For example, some people might believe an instance of God speaking of His Son, with pride, and in the third person, is absolutely conclusive on the issue.

Romans 8:9-11 suggest that the one in whom God dwells cannot detect any difference of separation between the Three of the Trinity.

Correct. It "suggests" but does not prove. A reading of those verses that would indicate otherwise is to consider Paul as using an analogy between the Spirit of Jesus dwelling in his believers and the Spirit of God which raised Jesus. In particular 8:11 seems to literally express a First Person->Third Person relationship wherein God resurrected Jesus rather than Jesus resurrecting himself.

Further, I find it nearly impossible to read 8:17 which makes us God's joint heirs with Jesus as not stating a separation between Father and Son. If there is actually no separation it is despite rather than according to the text.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2016 9:41 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2016 3:47 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 230 (777725)
02-06-2016 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by jaywill
02-06-2016 3:47 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
How about I believe both? I mean God the Father raised Jesus and Jesus raised Himself.

That explains how you resolve a textual issue in your own mind. But the evidence does not come from the text, but from an idea you have before looking at the text. However you came to your conclusion, it probably was not from reading 8:11.

The Father lives in the Son and the Son lives in the Father and they come as the Holy Spirit - being the Divine "WE" to indwell the lovers of Christ.

I don't see how this addressed the point, which is that the most direct reading of the text actually suggests something quite different. I am not trying to convince you that Jesus is not God. I'm only suggesting that it is not completely clear what Paul's thinking on the issue is.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2016 3:47 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by jaywill, posted 02-07-2016 7:12 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 230 (777743)
02-07-2016 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by jaywill
02-07-2016 7:12 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
My attitude is one of finally realizing that I do not HAVE to be able to reconcile seemingly contradictory statements in the Bible on the Triune God's mysterious nature. Rather than use one passage to suppress the truth of another, I trust that both are true.

I am sure that is exactly the method that people use to come up with understandings that are completely different from your own. And it is impossible to tell from the text who is correct.

I never claimed that any passage of the Bible was not correct. In fact, if we assume that they are all correct, then the question becomes how do we reconcile apparent conflicts and what is our starting point for resolution. There should be a way to do a text first, doctrine second reading. If not, then your doctrine is not grounded in scripture.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by jaywill, posted 02-07-2016 7:12 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by jaywill, posted 02-07-2016 10:52 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 230 (777765)
02-08-2016 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by jaywill
02-07-2016 10:52 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
we throw up our hands and resign ourselves that it is "impossible to tell from the context who is correct" ?

I think there are some cases where we should avoid telling others that they've missed the point. The things on which all Christians should agree are fairly small in number.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by jaywill, posted 02-07-2016 10:52 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 9:48 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 230 (777778)
02-08-2016 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by jaywill
02-08-2016 9:48 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
Do you see a need to, kind of, police talk among Christians ?

Not sure what the point of your question is.

I'll admit that I am not a fan of telling people who are doing their best to follow Christ that they are not real Christians based on some doctrinal point that is not even scriptural. But policing talk? How could I do that?

If what you are saying is that you want a free hand to comment on some matter without a response, I don't think I owe you that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 9:48 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 10:12 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 230 (777781)
02-08-2016 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by jaywill
02-08-2016 10:12 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
When you read the phrase "heirs of God" do you think that means God is the one inherited?

It clearly does not mean God inherited. That's why the joint heirs with Jesus is problematic.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 10:12 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 10:37 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 230 (777784)
02-08-2016 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by jaywill
02-08-2016 10:37 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
But why are you so sure that it cannot mean that God is the one inherited ?

Because the text states otherwise. The text says that Christ inherits from God and we inherit jointly with Christ.

At some point it is necessary to actually give words some meeting. What is an heir and what does it mean to be joint heirs? These are terms with ordinary and quite literal meanings.

ou're as bad as I am !

Correct. I am not better than you. But that is not the question here. I'd like to see you make a case for God inheriting from himself.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 10:37 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 11:19 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 162 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 12:58 PM NoNukes has seen this message

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 230 (777788)
02-08-2016 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by jaywill
02-08-2016 11:19 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
This passage definitely cannot exclude the truth of saved men inheriting God as their inheritance. It must include that.

Okay. This is not a point that I addressed. I misinterpreted your question as saying God was the indirect object of inheriting and not the direct object. Even though I have no idea what you mean by inheriting God, the idea is not excluded by 8:17 which does not detail what is inherited. I suggest that it does not advance the proposition either.

I hope to speak to "joint heirs with Christ" in a subsequent post.

I assumed you were doing so here, but apparently I erred. Isn't this your third announcement that you would get to my question?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 11:19 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 12:12 PM NoNukes has seen this message
 Message 161 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 12:31 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 230 (777800)
02-08-2016 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by jaywill
02-08-2016 12:31 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
Heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ is the destiny of the Christians. But I have a feeling that I still am not relating this enough to the three-one God for you

I yield. You win.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 12:31 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by jaywill, posted 02-09-2016 7:23 AM NoNukes has seen this message

  
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