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Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: White Privilege | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
The key issue is how the change will be fairly implemented. I can say right now that quota hiring and reverse discrimination are not valid solutions. Any other suggestions? Studies have shown that CVs with white male names on the top tend to get more interviews than identical CVs with 'ethnic' or female names on the top. So adding more blindness to the candidate selection process may be of use. However, you should acknowledge your privilege in being able to say 'we shouldn't actively try to discriminate' and have the natural biases in humans work in your favour until a better solution occurs. In the meantime, people of races who have historically been oppressed by white people and are generally socially disadvantaged have to continue living under the default state of having to lose out to jobs to less qualified white people. You might want to look at Europe's methods such as Positive action On the other hand, if you know your car naturally veers to the left, might it not be an idea to turn the wheel to the right on purpose even though you probably should be able to keep it pointed it straight?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I looked up Positive Action. I noted that the definition said
quote:Its a fine line, I will admit. I also understand that there are no easy solutions. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Hurting me is not the way to help others Every time a black person gets the job, a white person doesn't and vice versa. It is impossible to be fair without hurting someone because there are not infinite numbers of positions. So if a company has historically been lily white, does being fair mean that the only black people who can now be hired have to be better than every other white applicant? Are you better than every other black applicant? Lots of colleges have preferences for descendants of alumni. Is this fair, particularly when the school has a dearth of Asian alumni? How is it different from affirmative action? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member
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you should acknowledge your privilege in being able to say 'we shouldn't actively try to discriminate' and have the natural biases in humans work in your favour until a better solution occurs. In the meantime, people of races who have historically been oppressed by white people and are generally socially disadvantaged have to continue living under the default state of having to lose out to jobs to less qualified white people. You might want to look at Europe's methods such as Positive action Whether "white privilege" exists or not, what do you suggest be done in lieu of it? Because implicit in the narrative is that I should feel bad for something that I have no control over. Seems that in whatever country their is predominant culture would tend to have some perceived privilege. Does Black Privilege exist in Zimbabwe or Brown Privilege exist in Venezuela? "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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Whether "white privilege" exists or not, what do you suggest be done in lieu of it? If you don't think having white skin affords you privileges unavailable to people of darker skin, ask some non-white friends. And I made two suggestions in the post you are replying to. Adding blind selection processes into the hiring process (eg., a CV with no names on is the one the person making the decisions gets to see).
Because implicit in the narrative is that I should feel bad for something that I have no control over. If you don't feel bad that some people are losing job opportunities to less qualified people on the grounds (ultimately) that their ancestors lived closer to the equator - then there's something wrong with you. You don't need to be in a position to change things to feel that the situation is bad. There was nothing in my text that suggests you should feel responsible. But you are potentially jointly culpable, and really the best weapon to start fighting it is awareness. But think on this: The victim of racism (unconscious or otherwise) has less power to change things than you do. So if they can't fix it, it's up to us white folk to recognize that the problem is there and find ways to deal with it.
Does Black Privilege exist in Zimbabwe or Brown Privilege exist in Venezuela? I expect to some degree, yes. Historically one could look to Japan or Ancient Egypt for examples of the 'home race' having overt privileges, and today Han in China could be said to have privileges other races lack. The main difference is that these are quite overtly racist societies. Today the problem may be less significant but it is less obvious. Instead of it being difficult to avoid someone proclaiming their race as superior, you have people denying that the races are different while showing a statistical preference to white people which over time and given large population sizes, adds up to a problem that it is difficult to persuade some people even exists!
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
If you don't think having white skin affords you privileges unavailable to people of darker skin, ask some non-white friends. Some would agree, some wouldn't.
And I made two suggestions in the post you are replying to. Adding blind selection processes into the hiring process (eg., a CV with no names on is the one the person making the decisions gets to see). But the problem would still arise during the interview phase, no? You can hide a person's name for only so long but eventually a face-to-face interview will be conducted. So it seems if someone truly has a problem with minorities, there are ways of continuing to create an atmosphere of systemic racism without it overtly appearing to be systemic racism.
If you don't feel bad that some people are losing job opportunities to less qualified people on the grounds (ultimately) that their ancestors lived closer to the equator - then there's something wrong with you. You don't need to be in a position to change things to feel that the situation is bad. I don't mean feel bad for someone who doesn't get a job because they are a minority, I mean is it supposed to mean that I am supposed to feel bad for BEING white and should I debase myself because of it? Because that is what seems to be implicit in it, as if I am corroborating or contributing towards it just because I happen to be a white male.
There was nothing in my text that suggests you should feel responsible. But you are potentially jointly culpable, and really the best weapon to start fighting it is awareness. If I am culpable, then I am deserving of blame for it. How am I culpable? By not doing anything to better the situation?
But think on this: The victim of racism (unconscious or otherwise) has less power to change things than you do. So if they can't fix it, it's up to us white folk to recognize that the problem is there and find ways to deal with it. I know this is not the intended goal of yours, but that sounds really patronizing and demeaning to minorities.
The main difference is that these are quite overtly racist societies. Today the problem may be less significant but it is less obvious. Instead of it being difficult to avoid someone proclaiming their race as superior, you have people denying that the races are different while showing a statistical preference to white people which over time and given large population sizes, adds up to a problem that it is difficult to persuade some people even exists! Well, there's no doubt that systemic racism still exists and in some regards will always exist. Certain policies are in place to help ameliorate it, but there is no way to stop it completely. The best way to ensure inclusion towards a society is to fully immerse in it. What do I mean? Not all minorities are treated with disdain. Some tend to fair much better than others because they assimilate within the culture better than others. Asians or Indians may actually benefit because of their race, as there seems to be a presumption that people belonging to this minority are generally perceived as hard workers who contribute to economic strength and stability. The point is, the door swings both ways. If you look at the situation with African-Americans, there is not just the perception of Anglo-Americans mistreating blacks. In fact, there are also issues from Asian-Americans, Indian-Americans, and Latinos against African-Americans. That means that there is a perception across all of these other minority groups, which except for Latinos, comprise a much smaller minority group than African-Americans. Is this all due to White Privilege or are these people capable of making judgments based on their own experiences? Edited by Hyroglyphx, : Typos Edited by Hyroglyphx, : Edit to add"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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But think on this: The victim of racism (unconscious or otherwise) has less power to change things than you do. So if they can't fix it, it's up to us white folk to recognize that the problem is there and find ways to deal with it. I know this is not the intended goal of yours, but that sounds really patronizing and demeaning to minorities. It is up to me to do something about it and if I don't feel bad about it then there is something wrong with me. I can't help but laugh at the white people who are using black people to show other white people how they themselves are the ones who really are the supreme white people Edited by Cat Sci, : typos
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
It's a privilege that many of us are born with, like white skin. Unlike skin colour, it's a privilege that you can lose.
Right, so it's a privilege to have two legs.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Tangle writes:
It's a privilege that many of us are born with, like white skin. Right, so it's a privilege to have two legs. What is the point in calling it a "privilege"? When you're calling things like 'having two legs' a privilege, then you've lost me on what it is you're trying to say.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Cat Sci writes:
The point is that people who are privileged are the least likely to notice that they are privileged.
When you're calling things like 'having two legs' a privilege, then you've lost me on what it is you're trying to say.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
The point is that people who are privileged are the least likely to notice that they are privileged. No, what is the point in designating the thing that people aren't noticing that they are having as being a "privilege"? Like having two legs, almost everybody has two legs. Why is the point in considering that a privilege? That's just not what the word means so it's not making any sense. Okay, so I have two legs. Why should I call that a privilege? Why is that better than saying that people who do not have two legs are deprived?
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Cat Sci writes:
I didn't say you should call it a privilege. You can call it "George" for all I care. I said you should recognize that it is a privilege - or at least equivalent to a privilege. You should recognize that it's something you have that others don't have.
Okay, so I have two legs. Why should I call that a privilege? Cat Sci writes:
I didn't say it was better.
Why is that better than saying that people who do not have two legs are deprived?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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I said you should recognize that it is a privilege - or at least equivalent to a privilege. You should recognize that it's something you have that others don't have. Why "privilege" though? I have two ears. Do I need consider having two ears as a privilege to be concerned about the plight of the one-eared people? This privilege stuff just doesn't make any sense. Peron A being deprived doesn't mean Person B is privileged. And when privileged just means 'not-deprived' then it has lost its meaning.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Cat Sci writes:
It's a figure of speech. It stretches the dictionary-boy meaning of the word to make a point, the point of the whole friggin' thread - i.e. that people who are privileged don't know they're privileged.
Why "privilege" though? Cat Sci writes:
On the contrary, it broadens its meaning.
And when privileged just means 'not-deprived' then it has lost its meaning.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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ringo writes: It's a figure of speech. No it's not; privilege is a word with a meaning. You're misusing the word - hence the disagreement. People with two legs are not privileged, they're entirely to be expected - two legs is the normal condition for people. It's therefore not the case that people with two legs are privileged but it is the case that people without two legs are disadvantaged. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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