White Privilege

Whether "white privilege" exists or not, what do you suggest be done in lieu of it? Because implicit in the narrative is that I should feel bad for something that I have no control over. Seems that in whatever country their is predominant culture would tend to have some perceived privilege.Does Black Privilege exist in Zimbabwe or Brown Privilege exist in Venezuela?

Some would agree, some wouldn't. But the problem would still arise during the interview phase, no? You can hide a person's name for only so long but eventually a face-to-face interview will be conducted. So it seems if someone truly has a problem with minorities, there are ways of continuing to create an atmosphere of systemic racism without it overtly appearing to be systemic racism. I don't mean feel bad for someone who doesn't get a job because they are a minority, I mean is it supposed to mean that I am supposed to feel bad for BEING white and should I debase myself because of it? Because that is what seems to be implicit in it, as if I am corroborating or contributing towards it just because I happen to be a white male. If I am culpable, then I am deserving of blame for it. How am I culpable? By not doing anything to better the situation? I know this is not the intended goal of yours, but that sounds really patronizing and demeaning to minorities. Well, there's no doubt that systemic racism still exists and in some regards will always exist. Certain policies are in place to help ameliorate it, but there is no way to stop it completely. The best way to ensure inclusion towards a society is to fully immerse in it. What do I mean? Not all minorities are treated with disdain. Some tend to fair much better than others because they assimilate within the culture better than others. Asians or Indians may actually benefit because of their race, as there seems to be a presumption that people belonging to this minority are generally perceived as hard workers who contribute to economic strength and stability. The point is, the door swings both ways.If you look at the situation with African-Americans, there is not just the perception of Anglo-Americans mistreating blacks. In fact, there are also issues from Asian-Americans, Indian-Americans, and Latinos against African-Americans. That means that there is a perception across all of these other minority groups, which except for Latinos, comprise a much smaller minority group than African-Americans. Is this all due to White Privilege or are these people capable of making judgments based on their own experiences? Edited by Hyroglyphx, : TyposEdited by Hyroglyphx, : Edit to add

I'm glad someone else spotted exactly what I did... "You're too weak and pathetic to do this on your own!"

You asked for an anecdote, so that's what I provided. I actually agree with this. Or maybe it's spoiled brats making unreasonable demands to elicit White Guilt. It's called extreme patronage. Because it implies that they are consummate victims who need to be rescued. The same could be said everywhere since there is an unconscious, tribalistic tendency to gravitate towards things you know. If I were a foreigner somewhere, I might face the same adversities that you are insisting that I should feel bad about. Only, I still wouldn't feel bad about it because on some level, I would expect it. You're missing the point entirely. In the United States, it's no mystery that Anglo-Americans are by and large considered racist towards African-Americans. But Asian-Americans, Latin Americans, etc also have issues with African-Americans. Who then is the common denominator in the equation? The point is that this glass ceiling that some are insistent is foisted upon African-Americans may actually be foisted upon themselves. Not everything can be explained away by White Privilege.With the same breath that you denounce American and British culture for their perceived racism, you forget that they have also offered the most inclusive, most culturally diverse society on the entire planet. Of all the countries on the planet, Canada, the US, the UK, France, Sweden and Germany are undoubtedly the most inclusive, most culturally diverse countries on the planet. So, if it's the teeming cesspool of racism, how is that the case?

First, this is very lengthy, so I will attempt to truncate it. If you feel that I neglected any critical aspects of your argument, please put them forward and I will address it. The terms White Privilege and White Guilt are often thrown around synonymously. If this was not your intent, then my apologies. But I'm not making up these terms. I strenuously disagree with that. People are generally based on their individual merits, not their race. You may be familiar with the term, "White Trash," to denote unsophisticated, uneducated white people who live on the margins of society. I doubt that they would be selected for any job (outside of Walmart) over a sophisticated, educated black candidate.There also seems to be a difference in causative reasons for how we arrive from A to B. Some may look at the statistics of black unemployment and see it as evidence of pervasive racism. Others may look at the same statistics and conclude that it is evidence of cultural disparities which foster self-destructive behavior. Saner minds would probably rightly conclude that both are potential reasons, but that without looking at it on a case by case basis, we really cannot definitively determine the exact cause. It is a demonstration that tribal behavior (which is essentially what racism really is) exists everywhere! Ask the thousands of white homeless people we come across every year how that "privilege" is working out for them. More could be said of how decent parenting better facilitates you for success than the color of your skin. A black woman raised in a loving home is probably ten thousand times better prepared for the world than a white man who came from a broken home. I am demonstrating how foreigners are often better able to be successful in America than African-Americans who are natives. The point is that if White Privilege affects minorities, then how is that these foreigners are so successful in a place so patently racist? Obviously it is not racism, that's why. There are obviously other factors at play. If other cultures are reporting similar experiences then can it really be racism against blacks (could it be the other way around, in other words), and more to the point, can it be specific to White Privilege? You first stated, "minorities." You slowly shifted the focus to "blacks" after I demonstrated that other non-whites were actually, per capita, MORE successful than even whites. So where's the White Privilege in that?I'm not making things up nearly as much as you are shifting the goalpost. The point I am trying to get across is that White Privilege is either non-existent Social Justice Warrior nonsense or massively overstated and/or is used as a catch-all excuse to explain other sociological factors.

The problem here, Mod, is that you are only looking at one possible variable here as the reason. Do I think that systemic racism has contributed towards black people per capita earning less than whites? Absolutely. But would you likewise conclude that there is an unfair advantage for Asians knowing that, per capita, they not only make more money than anyone else, but also per capita get better grades?Are schools systematically "oppressing" white people or is it simply that Asians are outperforming them -- perhaps because they have a culture that emphasizes the importance of school, hard work, and strategizing success? I only ask because if we look at your theory, it only includes oppression and tyranny as the sole, possible culprit. At what point would you entertain the notion the possibility that, per capita, black people are underperforming? And there are many possible variables to account for that: One is that, yes, there is a history of oppression that negatively impacts the black community. Another would be a culture that promotes or fosters self-destructive behavior. There are plenty of black voices that are critical of the black community in that regard.Is that potentially a reason? Ah, so in other words, punishing the son for the great-great-great grandfather's sins?Your solution is to discriminate against whites on the sole basis that they happen to be white to help black people on the sole basis that they so happen to be black?That doesn't strike you as ironically racist? The same was the case for the Jew in Germany. But the generation that perpetrated that heinous crime is dead and gone. Are modern-Germans expected to carry the burden of their ancestors? The Nazi's bombed Great Britain. Should they pay you restitution even though contemporary Germans had nothing to do with it nor were you personally a victim? Should modern-day Japanese be held personally accountable for what their ancestors did at Pearl Harbor? Are Americans forever indebted to the Japanese for dropping an Atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? At what point does it end?Call me crazy, but I hold people responsible for what they actually have done, not what their ancestors may or may not have been a part of.

Yes, and perhaps in some instances it is a mischaracterization. It's an illustration demonstrating your simplistic conclusions. Again, it was you who stated "minorities," but you shifted to "African-Americans" after showing you how minorities aren't wrapped up in this system of oppression. Now it's off limits because it undermines your point about how privileged white people are. Yes. I'm referring to some of the aspects among African-American culture that negatively impact their community. One thing that comes to mind is gangster rap. And while that is a sub-culture within the overall culture, I'm sure you would agree that it is glorifying something that is very self-destructive. Yes, because people stick to what they know. It's not merely "black-sounding names," it's inclusive of most unique names. I have a friend who's named, "Sunbow," because his mom was a hippie. He had a lot of issues too. Not only do most black people have very Anglicized names, but plenty of white people have bizarre sounding names as well. How you name your child can have far-reaching effects on their success.Now, is that very superficial and well, bullshit, to judge a person on their name? Yeah, I totally agree. But this emphasizes that this phenomenon encompasses everyone. It isn't specific to black people. Is it that I get energized when someone suggests discriminating against whites or do I think it's bullshit to punish innocent people period? What is it exactly that I am in denial about? Ostensibly the Jewish could say they've always been oppressed. But that's not really the point. Are Germans today responsible for Jews today? Yes or no? If the answer is no, then how is that any different with the situation in America? Maybe I just don't see things the way you do, but I certainly don't see how I'm privileged. For one thing, it makes a mockery of what I have been able to accomplish in my life, as if everything I have was handed to me on a silver platter or that it was at the expense of someone else. I have been.

Going to college makes me "enormously privileged?" I finished college because I EARNED a GI Bill for sacrificing 8 years of my life. And all people in the military are guaranteed the same thing equally. Blacks, whites, latinos, Asians, men, women, gay, straight... Everyone. Equally. Oh, sorry, but everything I have is what I've earned myself. Maybe mommy and daddy paid for you, but they didn't pay for me. I'm sure you'd love to place me in the whiny, bratty privileged, spoiled, pampered white kid bracket that you're probably used to seeing. But you can't. LOL! Everyone had the same public education with the same opportunities. My parents nor did I grow up in the Jim Crow era of the South. Are you serious?!?!?! Literacy rates are at like 99% of the entire population! Stop spinning such a bullshit narrative that doesn't reflect reality. Almost no one "goes to bed hungry" in this day and age, and if they did, then they had shitty parents. Period. Stop laying everything at the feet of someone else for making shitty choices in life. My standard of living is less than the median income. I live in the same community with blacks, latino's, whites, Indians, Asians, etc. And I work with a very similar demographic. Sorry to disappoint! The amount of anyone killed by police is not even 1%... It's not even close to .5% But I'm curious why you think that all or even the majority of shootings by police aren't justified. In fact, whites are the highest demographic killed by police. And as for homicides by race, blacks killed by non-blacks account for 10%. 90% of homicides in the black community are by other blacks. But, hey, don't let facts get in the way of your emotions. And as I suspected... Victims and victimizers. That's all you see, and it clouds your judgment.

I actually don't think that Asians have unfair advantage. I am pointing out that if Mod's reasoning is accurate, then the only logical conclusion is that Asians must have an unfair advantage given the results. Therefore Asian Privilege. That's not an anecdote, that is statistically factual.

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During the 1940s, labor unions specifically discriminated against Asians. So many Asian Americans were systematically excluded from manual labor jobs in a way that other minorities were not. This, coupled with advancing technologies and a post-WWII economy that demanded white collar technical professionals, meant that the only way for Asian Americans to achieve upward mobility was through education. They had no other choice, based on the racism of the 1940s.

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LOL, yeah, okay... except that you're referencing the 1940's, as if ALL Asians living America now directly descended from that lineage. Many Asians in the United States are either 1st or 2nd generation, meaning, they never experienced the internment camps of WWII. Yes, I agree. The question is whether it is so profound today or even within the last 10 years that it prevents anyone from getting a job. The President of the United States is black. African-Americans account for 22% of the total US population. The only way for him to have been president is by white votes in droves. The bleak and desperate plight that you are trying to paint is more a reflection of the past, not the present. Okay, here is what is known empirically -- that African and Caribbean blacks emigrating to the United States also score higher than that of native African-Americans. This serves to prove that there are not racial reasons to account for the disparity (blacks are not inferior intellectually), that racism itself is not the culprit (since all of them are black), and also highly suggests that there are cultural reasons to account for the disparity.Year after year, academia have tried several different methods to revamp the SAT, Intelligent Quotients, and other tests to ensure that it is as neutral as possible. And year after year, the same results prevail. So at what point are you willing to entertain, even for a second, that your theory cannot account for the disparity given so many controls being added and given the evidence that counters it? Most cultures foster some self-destructive behavior. I would argue that Anglo-American culture has a very bad habit of perpetuating racism. I do not think for a minute that race does not factor in to it whatsoever, I only challenge that it is overstated and not an accurate reason for the disparity. That it doesn't make you a de facto racist for noticing it. The SAT and other standardized test makers have been trying for decades to devise testing that is not racially biased. And year after year the same results manifest. Also, what's your excuse for school grades overall that reflect the same disparity? So everything in academia is just inherently racist, right? C'mon man... Yeah, we all get the historical and cultural context... It doesn't make it healthy. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but the crime rates within black neighborhoods mean that they are attacking each other at greater rates. I suppose that also is due to white privilege? You don't know any of this, you are assuming it because without it, there's no other way to account for the disparity. So are Jews. Their numbers were cut down to a third and still their remnants managed to crawl out of their ghettos.

That was actually a very interesting and insightful anecdote to help elucidate the issue. Okay, so let's flesh it out a little. That was a great example of a question that was unfair to ask of people not as familiar with the culture as a native would. Clearly not intended, but unfair nevertheless.What kinds of questions might exist that would reasonably give an unfair disadvantage towards African-Americans but would give unfair advantage towards Anglo-Americans?

I'm not seeing how the results might be any different than comparing the Southern United States with the Northern United States. The Northern states probably test better on average. The inverse might be the case in England, where the North might do more poorly overall to the South. Would that indicate racism as the culprit or might that be indicative of a difference in cultural identities? Are you referring to Ebonics? Except that proper English is taught in all schools, so it's hardly relevant either way. Living in Texas might maximize one's chance of using the improper conjunction of ya'll versus you'll. Are Texans "underprivileged" therefore because they have modes of speech specific to their region? Should SAT's make special accommodations for Texans or is it irrelevant since schools teach the proper conjunction?

I'm not going to read all 83 pages, but assuming that everything stated is factual, what was the reason why the two answers yielded different results?And what are test-makers supposed to do beforehand to prevent these purported racially biased tests? What is the control?

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We find that the Asian-American educational advantage over whites is attributable mainly to Asian students exerting greater academic effort and not to advantages in tested cognitive abilities or socio-demographics.

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SourceYour citation was explicit to mention that it was relevant to 1940's Asian-Americans. It does not explain why Asian-Americans, per capita, perform better than the entire native population. I don't doubt that any of that exists, which I have already said. Many different studies have concluded many different potential reasons. Here are a few, some of which you have already mentioned:1. African-Americans are three times more likely to be poor than Anglo-Americans
a. Potential reason is systemic racism against African-Americans
b. Potential reason is the perception of systemic racism against African-Americans2. Among African-Americans, there is an internal struggle that performing well in school means you are "acting white," and such pressures denigrate those who want to do well in school.
a. Factors such as microagression, may further dissuade black students from wanting to try harder since they feel as though they are ostracized regardless I can appreciate how deep the rift still is, although the gap has thankfully been steadily closing, albeit very slowly. My contention is not that racism doesn't exist, but that racism is often overstated as the culprit. Black people are constantly being told by other black people and white people, that white people are out to get them or disadvantage them in some way, whether it is wholly true, partially true, or totally false. I think this kind of mindset is terribly destructive to them. For one thing, there's a lot less racists than there are egalitarians. Providing this bleak narrative gives blacks this illusion that the system is so corrupt that you might as not even bother.And there are many white voices, possibly even yourself, that think you are helping by showing solidarity but in reality create an even bigger problem. You say that perhaps I "can't see my own privilege." Okay, I am willing to concede that possibility. Are you willing to concede that in a lot of ways, all your excuses for why blacks are underperforming is actually hindering them more? Have you ever heard the expression that well-meaning liberals are shackling blacks to a plantation mentality? It is patronizing to assume that they need to be rescued and that they need you to rescue them? If I am an unaware of my privilege, then perhaps you are unaware that your savior-complex that is demeaning. Supposing this reason even remotely should be entertained, are you suggesting that it's "white" to be ambitious and educated? It still doesn't explain why whites and Asians perform better versus blacks and latinos when they all study the same exact curriculum, but especially is true of Caribbean and African immigrants. Surely if the curriculum is so lopsided to help white people, it would necessarily affect everyone that is not white, but especially immigrants, no?With that in mind, at what point MIGHT the difference in cultural norms reflect a more accurate reason? That's a genuine question. What would it take to consider that as a possible factor?The rest of the thread is a redundancy of what we've already previously argued.

But is it significant enough to warrant, say, placing the contraction "ya'll" on nationwide SAT's to accommodate Texans and Southerners in light of them doing more poorly statistically? But the main thrust of the argument is advantage vs disadvantage, and how we should level playing field, is it not? Okay, well, for it's worth I don't feel disadvantaged by it! Not necessarily. My Turkish girlfriend teaches native speakers how to speak their own fucking language properly LOL! Sad, but true. Oh, wow... I didn't know that. That contraction is very common in New York, Chicago, and Boston. Now I know where it originated. Makes a lot of sense that it is still common in those areas since those regions were where the English emigrated to first and built epicenters. Okay, getting back to the topic, where were you going with the Ebonics argument? What were suggesting be done?Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.