Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 79 (8897 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-20-2019 5:55 PM
48 online now:
dwise1, kjsimons, PaulK, ringo, xongsmith (5 members, 43 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,498 Year: 3,535/19,786 Month: 530/1,087 Week: 120/212 Day: 36/14 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
14151617
18
19Next
Author Topic:   White Privilege
Modulous
Member (Idle past 179 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 256 of 276 (779255)
03-02-2016 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Hyroglyphx
03-02-2016 1:08 AM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
But is it significant enough to warrant, say, placing the contraction "ya'll" on nationwide SAT's to accommodate Texans and Southerners in light of them doing more poorly statistically?

I don't know. I've not seen anybody who claims it is.

But the main thrust of the argument is advantage vs disadvantage, and how we should level playing field, is it not?

Yes.

Not necessarily.

I'm not arguing it is necessary.

Oh, wow... I didn't know that. That contraction is very common in New York, Chicago, and Boston.

And N'Awlins, where half my family lives.

It's from 'you all'

I'll see you all later = I'll see y'all later

Okay, getting back to the topic, where were you going with the Ebonics argument?

Message 235

What were suggesting be done?

I don't think I've made any suggestions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-02-2016 1:08 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16227
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 257 of 276 (779262)
03-02-2016 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Jon
03-01-2016 6:08 PM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
Jon writes:

Is testing anything someone might not know from birth "not a valid reflection of their intelligence"?


Of course it isn't valid. Would a test in Arabic be a valid test of your intelligence?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Jon, posted 03-01-2016 6:08 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Jon, posted 03-05-2016 12:01 PM ringo has responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 16 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 258 of 276 (779290)
03-02-2016 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Hyroglyphx
03-02-2016 12:26 AM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
We find that the Asian-American educational advantage over whites is attributable mainly to Asian students exerting greater academic effort and not to advantages in tested cognitive abilities or socio-demographics.

Right. Which has nothing to do with the hypothesis that Asian-American's have a value system that emphasizes "hard work" compared to other U.S. demographics. This paper simply demonstrates that Asian-Americans "exert greater academic effort," which isn't exactly something I contest -- and neatly lines up with the history of discrimination on the Asian-American community and what this meant for their paths to upward mobility.

Maybe we're not actually disagreeing on anything here; some misinformed individuals think that African-Americans are, for instance, "lazy" and this is what accounts for the GPA and SAT gap -- when nothing could be further from the truth.

Your citation was explicit to mention that it was relevant to 1940's Asian-Americans. It does not explain why Asian-Americans, per capita, perform better than the entire native population.

They don't perform better than whites in most areas. See Suzuki, 2002 ("Revisiting the Model Minority Stereotype: Implications for Student Affairs Practice and Higher Education"). The "model minority" viewpoint has largely been discredited by more recent studies. Whites still tend to perform better, on average, than Asian-Americans.

That (1) African-Americans are discriminated in the job market and that (2) this has a significant role in explaining the present socioeconomic divide between whites and blacks has been well-established.

I don't doubt that any of that exists, which I have already said.

And I provided several studies which demonstrate the validity of my above statement; you have offered nothing to refute these studies.

1. African-Americans are three times more likely to be poor than Anglo-Americans
a. Potential reason is systemic racism against African-Americans
b. Potential reason is the perception of systemic racism against African-Americans

None of this is incompatible with my thesis. Reality is more granular than course, and so there are obviously a multiplicity of factors behind the present socioeconomic divide between whites and blacks. What I am arguing, and what has been consistently demonstrated, is that systematic racism is not only perceived but real; and that such racism plays a significant role in disadvantaging African-Americans compared to their white peers.

2. Among African-Americans, there is an internal struggle that performing well in school means you are "acting white," and such pressures denigrate those who want to do well in school.

Citation needed.

Factors such as microagression, may further dissuade black students from wanting to try harder since they feel as though they are ostracized regardless

So white privilege.

My contention is not that racism doesn't exist, but that racism is often overstated as the culprit. Black people are constantly being told by other black people and white people, that white people are out to get them or disadvantage them in some way, whether it is wholly true, partially true, or totally false. I think this kind of mindset is terribly destructive to them. For one thing, there's a lot less racists than there are egalitarians.

And there are a lot more non-egalitarian institutions than there are egalitarian ones. If something as apparently neutral is the SAT is actually deeply, systematically biased against African-Americans, then imagine what other institutions are like. Actually, we don't have to imagine because there are very good lines of evidence that institutional racism is pervasive in all sectors of society.

And there are many white voices, possibly even yourself, that think you are helping by showing solidarity but in reality create an even bigger problem.

I'm potentially causing a bigger problem than systematic racism? I'd like to see you demonstrate that instead of casually conjure various speculations.

You say that perhaps I "can't see my own privilege." Okay, I am willing to concede that possibility. Are you willing to concede that in a lot of ways, all your excuses for why blacks are underperforming is actually hindering them more?

You keep saying "excuses." So check your privilege. That SATs are inherently biased against African-Americans (more on that later in a following post) is not an excuse; that African-Americans find it harder to get a good-paying job despite being as qualified as whites is not an excuse; that a large percentage of African-Americans presently incarcerated are for drug offenses, rather than violent crime, is not an excuse; that African-Americans face more obstacles in getting adequate health care despite similar socioeconomic status as their white peers is not an excuse; that the justice system is biased against African-Americans is not an excuse; that African-Americans are more likely to be born in poverty than their white peers because they did not have the luxury of enslaving whites in days gone by is not an excuse; etc. These are not excuses. These are institutionalized structures, deeply embedded and enmeshed in present social reality, which consistently disadvantage African-Americans and advantage whites.

Have you ever heard the expression that well-meaning liberals are shackling blacks to a plantation mentality? It is patronizing to assume that they need to be rescued and that they need you to rescue them? If I am an unaware of my privilege, then perhaps you are unaware that your savior-complex that is demeaning.

No, I don't think anyone in particular needs me to rescue them. So, let me see here. You think we should just ignore the problem of racism in this country and hope that it will go away? Tell that to all the black lives lost to police executions for absolutely no defensible reason.

You seem slightly uncomfortable talking about your privilege and the current state of racism in the United States. I wonder why that might be.

African and Caribbean blacks emigrating to the United States also score higher than that of native African-Americans proves exactly nothing regarding the lack of racial bias in the SAT. Consider that immigrants to the U.S. are often rather well-educated, and the education of one's parents plays a predictive role in shaping SAT scores. So that could rather easily explain the above phenomenon and in no way refutes my central thesis: that SAT tests structurally favor whites.

Supposing this reason even remotely should be entertained, are you suggesting that it's "white" to be ambitious and educated?

I literally said nothing that would imply that.

It still doesn't explain why whites and Asians perform better versus blacks and latinos when they all study the same exact curriculum, but especially is true of Caribbean and African immigrants.

There is a multiplicity of factors that go into shaping SAT scores. What about this do you not get? The SAT test is inherently structured to favor whites, but this isn't the only factor that goes into shaping SAT scores. Which means that none of your counterarguments are actually relevant.

Surely if the curriculum is so lopsided to help white people, it would necessarily affect everyone that is not white, but especially immigrants, no?

That does not necessarily follow, no, since authorized immigrants are often more well-educated than U.S. citizens (kinda why they're chosen for entry into the United States), and the education level of one's parents help shape SAT scores.

With that in mind, at what point MIGHT the difference in cultural norms reflect a more accurate reason? That's a genuine question. What would it take to consider that as a possible factor?

Evidence, actually. Which I haven't seen yet. But I have seen a good deal of evidence that SAT tests are structured in such a way that they favor whites.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-02-2016 12:26 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 259 of 276 (779292)
03-02-2016 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Modulous
03-02-2016 8:09 AM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
Academia have been using it for a century. It sounds like you are just misunderstanding the concept.

The term as you wish to use it is useless.

And there is a lot of useless crap in academia.

How much do you know about AAVE and the dialects of American English?

Not a great deal.

Then on what are you basing your claims regarding AAVE?

AAVE might make it very difficult for black students to do well on tests; it also might have no affect greater than the affect any dialect deviant from the Standard has. It seems you wouldn't be likely to have a clue one way or the other.

I myself haven't seen anything to indicate AAVE would inhibit academic performance providing a decent education on the Standard variety. That last part is becoming harder to come by, though, as Multiculturalist liberals for misguided reasons look to preserve amongst blacks the non-standard dialect and a mass ignorance of the Standard typically necessary for academic success and a lot of good employment.

What defines Standard American English and how many people speak it from birth?

This doesn't seem related to anything I was saying.

It's entirely related, because if no one speaks the Standard from birth, then pointing out the prevalence of a non-standard variety amongst one group can't prove a 'disadvantage' for that group or some 'privilege' for others.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Modulous, posted 03-02-2016 8:09 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Modulous, posted 03-02-2016 8:07 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 179 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 260 of 276 (779296)
03-02-2016 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Jon
03-02-2016 7:14 PM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
The term as you wish to use it is useless.

And there is a lot of useless crap in academia.

The term as I wish to use it has utility.
The term as you think I wish to use it may well be useless.

White Privilege refers a collection of social, economic, political etc advantages that come from being White in the USA (and other countries too, but one at a time I think). I've given actual examples of it.

Then on what are you basing your claims regarding AAVE?

I haven't made any claims. I raised it as an example of how differences in cultures might influence test results. As I know less about SATs than I do about AAVE I haven't actually made any claims that these two are specifically linked. I remember hearing someone mention a theory along those lines some years ago, and I raised it as an example as it sounded like it might illuminate the concept.

I myself haven't seen anything to indicate AAVE would inhibit academic performance

Well I hadn't done so before. The first google hit for me for 'aave academic perfomance' is The Effects of Culturally Congruent Educational Technologies on Student Achievement - by Finkelstein et al

quote:
Dialectal differences are one explanation for the systematical-
ly reduced test scores of children of color compared to their Euro-
American peers. In this work, we explore the relationship between aca-
demic performance and dialect differences exhibited in a learning envi-
ronment by assessing 3 rd grade students science performance after in-
teracting with a distant peer technology that employed one of three
dialect use patterns. We found that our participants, all native speakers
of African American Vernacular English (AAVE), demonstrated the
strongest science performance when the technology used AAVE fea-
tures consistently throughout the interaction. These results call for a re-
examination of the cultural assumptions underlying the design of educa-
tional technologies, with a specific emphasis on the way in which we
present information to culturally-underrepresented groups.

Familiarity with school English in African American children and its relation to early reading achievement. by Anne Harper Charity Hudley et al

Now you've seen something, even if you decide to dismiss as incorrect.

It's entirely related, because if no one speaks the Standard from birth, then pointing out the prevalence of a non-standard variety amongst one group can't prove a 'disadvantage' for that group or some 'privilege' for others.

In language there is no Standard. There are just prevalences. The standards in education are presumably set through government policy with consultation with parents. I would have thought as an educator you'd have a better idea than me how the US system determines Standard English for testing purposes.

I have no idea what knowing a language from birth has to do with anything. If you are born black, the chances of you learning AAVE as a primary language are greater than if you aren't. That's not controversial is it? That by being in a majority, you get to be part of the group that sets the standard. If, in doing so, bias seeps in - it is probably to the benefit of your group. Either conscious bias (overt and covert racism), or selection bias or some other systematic bias.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Jon, posted 03-02-2016 7:14 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 932
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 261 of 276 (779309)
03-03-2016 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Jon
03-01-2016 6:04 PM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
Let me clarify. The example I gave was a series of questions which a child familiar with traditional white British culture stood a good chance of answering. A child of Asian ethnic origin stood no chance, because Asian origin parents don't generally read their kids traditional white British nursery rhymes.

You responded by saying:

Those questions favored kids familiar withEnglish culture.

and then clarified that you meant the culture of the English language.

English is spoken by many different cultures the world over, and if it's possible to claim that a language itself has a culture (I do not believe it has, in and of itself), then your claim is that questions about nursery rhymes known by white British people, should also be known by anyone who speaks English - regardless of whether they are read to them as children in the culture they are born into. That is patently not the case.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Jon, posted 03-01-2016 6:04 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Jon, posted 03-05-2016 12:04 PM vimesey has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 276 (779531)
03-05-2016 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by ringo
03-02-2016 10:37 AM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
Jon writes:

Is testing anything someone might not know from birth "not a valid reflection of their intelligence"?

Of course it isn't valid.

Thank you for clarifying to everyone that your position is ridiculous.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 03-02-2016 10:37 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 03-05-2016 12:10 PM Jon has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 276 (779532)
03-05-2016 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by vimesey
03-03-2016 6:06 AM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
Let me clarify. The example I gave was a series of questions which a child familiar with traditional white British culture stood a good chance of answering. A child of Asian ethnic origin stood no chance, because Asian origin parents don't generally read their kids traditional white British nursery rhymes.

You're trying to get race involved where race plays no part.

For people who grow up speaking English, what nursery rhymes do you think they learn?

I grew up speaking English. What nursery rhymes do you think I learned?

then your claim is that questions about nursery rhymes known by white British people, should also be known by anyone who speaks English - regardless of whether they are read to them as children in the culture they are born into. That is patently not the case.

Well, no; my claim is not that people should just magically know stuff they were never taught.

My claim is that the questions relate to English culture and test one's understanding of it. And that these questions aren't 'unfair' because all test questions test people on things they had to be taught at some point. To argue they are unfair is to go down the road of ridiculousness with ringo.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by vimesey, posted 03-03-2016 6:06 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by vimesey, posted 03-05-2016 2:42 PM Jon has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16227
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 264 of 276 (779535)
03-05-2016 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Jon
03-05-2016 12:01 PM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
Jon writes:

Thank you for clarifying to everyone that your position is ridiculous.


I won't presume, like you do, to know how everybody reacts to my position. (I did get a cheer, which makes your claim mathematically false.)

I will point out, however, that you have done nothing to show that there is anything wrong with my position.

Let's try again: Would a test in Arabic be a valid measure of your intelligence?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Jon, posted 03-05-2016 12:01 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Jon, posted 03-05-2016 12:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 265 of 276 (779537)
03-05-2016 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by ringo
03-05-2016 12:10 PM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
I will point out, however, that you have done nothing to show that there is anything wrong with my position.

It's easy. I asked: Is testing anything someone might not know from birth "not a valid reflection of their intelligence"?

You replied: Of course it isn't valid.

And that's laughably a ridiculous position, ringo. Almost nothing anyone knows did they know from birth.

No school could get away with restricting itself to only testing those things its pupils should have known from birth.

Your position is ridiculous in the extreme; right up there with your defense of FGM.

Would a test in Arabic be a valid measure of your intelligence?

The tests weren't in a language the children didn't speak. Your question is irrelevant.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 03-05-2016 12:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by ringo, posted 03-06-2016 1:15 PM Jon has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 932
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 266 of 276 (779550)
03-05-2016 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Jon
03-05-2016 12:04 PM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
For people who grow up speaking English, what nursery rhymes do you think they learn?

The ones relevant to their cultural background. English is not a homogeneous cultural background - that should be obvious to anyone who has interacted with a fellow English speaker from a different cultural background. For example, if it hadn't been for the utterly random popularity (in the 70s) of Rolf Harris, I would have no idea about the significance of six white boomers. Without looking it up, do you ?


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Jon, posted 03-05-2016 12:04 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by kjsimons, posted 03-05-2016 2:51 PM vimesey has not yet responded
 Message 269 by Jon, posted 03-05-2016 10:31 PM vimesey has responded
 Message 272 by ringo, posted 03-06-2016 1:19 PM vimesey has not yet responded

    
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 665
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 267 of 276 (779551)
03-05-2016 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by vimesey
03-05-2016 2:42 PM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
Ha, you learn something new every day! I had never heard of of the phrase "six white boomers" before and so I had no choice but to google it. Being English speaking, American not Australian, I wasn't familiar with this phrase and would have bombed any test on this tidbit of culture.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by vimesey, posted 03-05-2016 2:42 PM vimesey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Straggler, posted 03-05-2016 4:53 PM kjsimons has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 268 of 276 (779560)
03-05-2016 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by kjsimons
03-05-2016 2:51 PM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
Apparently there are quite a lot of differences between US and UK versions of nursery rhymes as well as other common cultural references such as the names of children's games.

Http://www.bbcamerica.com/...sery-rhymes-and-childhood-games

I'd imagine other English speaking cultures have other similar differences.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by kjsimons, posted 03-05-2016 2:51 PM kjsimons has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 276 (779573)
03-05-2016 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by vimesey
03-05-2016 2:42 PM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
Testing cultural knowledge is a perfectly valid thing to do.

Believing the alternative leads us into absurdity.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by vimesey, posted 03-05-2016 2:42 PM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Straggler, posted 03-06-2016 3:19 AM Jon has not yet responded
 Message 275 by vimesey, posted 03-07-2016 5:49 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 270 of 276 (779578)
03-06-2016 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Jon
03-05-2016 10:31 PM


Re: the history and mathematics of prejudice
If you are testing cultural knowledge then that will self evidently disadvantage those from other cultures in terms of test scores.

Believing the alternative leads us to absurdity.

Abe - I don't have a problem with testing cultural knowledge as long as it's realised that it is cultural knowledge that is being tested.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Jon, posted 03-05-2016 10:31 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
14151617
18
19Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019