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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 4846 of 5179 (780587)
03-17-2016 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 4845 by NoNukes
03-17-2016 12:21 PM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
NoNukes writes:
It turns out that suspensions of constitutions are not very common, and that examples of such suspensions being a good idea are even rarer. Most of them are done by dictators and have little to recommend them as examples. What's your point?
My point is what I said:
quote:
It isn't the constitution that restrains the government from wielding unlimited power. Message 4842

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4845 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2016 12:21 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 4847 of 5179 (780589)
03-17-2016 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4843 by NoNukes
03-17-2016 12:06 PM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
NoNukes writes:
Constitutions are suspended every day.
Perhaps you are right. Let's look at some examples of constitutions that have been suspended so far this year and evaluate whether they make good examples. Which ones are those?
As if this really needs to be explained, in the context in which Ringo used the idiom "every day" it means "regularly" or "steadily," not daily, monthly or even annually. It's similar to when "all the time" is used idiomatically.
You always do this - if necessary I can define "always do this" for you as used in this context.
Could we just get on with a discussion of what Ringo actually meant instead of what you want to accuse him of meaning? He obviously meant that the suspension of constitutions is not an uncommon occurrence. If you think he's wrong, that the suspension of constitutions *is* an uncommon occurrence, then argue about that. You have his Wikipedia list of suspended constitutions - take a look and use that as a basis of discussion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4843 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2016 12:06 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4848 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2016 1:20 PM Percy has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 4848 of 5179 (780590)
03-17-2016 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 4847 by Percy
03-17-2016 1:13 PM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
. It's similar to when "all the time" is used idiomatically.
Right Percy. But it turns out that constitutions are not regularly suspended, and that historically suspension of the governments are rarely done by democratically styled governments. These are all points that I made with ringo. Figure of speech or not, ringo's statement was an exaggeration of just how common it is to suspend the constitution.
Could we just get on with a discussion of what Ringo actually meant
I've done that, Percy. Ringo managed to make a point about the figure of speech and I've already responded to that based on the list Ringo linked to. Ringo responded again, and I am content to leave it at that. Why isn't that enough for you?
Ringo's point is that the executive branch should simply ignore the Supreme Court because it is common to suspend the constitution. Well, guess what?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4847 by Percy, posted 03-17-2016 1:13 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4849 by ringo, posted 03-17-2016 1:22 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 4851 by Percy, posted 03-17-2016 1:35 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 4849 of 5179 (780591)
03-17-2016 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 4848 by NoNukes
03-17-2016 1:20 PM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
NoNukes writes:
Figure of speech or not, ringo's statement was an exaggeration of just how common it is to suspend the constitution.
If I said, "Constitutions CAN BE SUSPENDED," would that pass muster?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4848 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2016 1:20 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4850 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2016 1:27 PM ringo has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 4850 of 5179 (780592)
03-17-2016 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 4849 by ringo
03-17-2016 1:22 PM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
If I said, "Constitutions CAN BE SUSPENDED," would that pass muster?
Isn't the real question whether or not we should suspend the constitution? And by suspend what is meant here is the executive branch of the feds or states simply ignoring a Supreme Court ruling? Do I really have to argue why it is not stupid to not do such a thing?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4849 by ringo, posted 03-17-2016 1:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4854 by ringo, posted 03-18-2016 11:42 AM NoNukes has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 4851 of 5179 (780595)
03-17-2016 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 4848 by NoNukes
03-17-2016 1:20 PM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
NoNukes writes:
Figure of speech or not, ringo's statement was an exaggeration of just how common it is to suspend the constitution.
Uh, no, it wasn't. Or is this another case of everyone but you understanding precisely what was meant? How does this from your Message 4845 even make sense:
NoNukes in Message 4845 writes:
Of course it is a figure of speech...Apparently "suspended every day" is a gross exaggeration.
So it's both a figure of speech *and* "a gross exaggeration." At least be consistent about whether to stick to your original (and wrong) literal interpretation.
I've done that, Percy. Ringo managed to make a point about the figure of speech and I've already responded to that. Ringo responded again, and I am content to leave it at that. Why isn't that enough for you?
I'm just hoping it's enough for you. If you're "content" to actually discuss the topic now, wonderful.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4848 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2016 1:20 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 4852 of 5179 (780598)
03-17-2016 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4841 by ringo
03-17-2016 11:42 AM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
That's what I'm doing. The Second Amendment clearly does not apply to people who are not members of "a well-regulated militia", yet your government stupidly follows the misinterpretation of the law.
No, you're still faulting the government for following a law they have no power to alter even in opposition.
Your interpretation of the amendment is agreed to by many, and disagreed to by many, of the best constitutional scholars around. The court, split 5-4, came down on one side. The Rule of Law requires this government to act in accordance with that interpretation. Not optional.
This not the perfect system. In fact it is the worst system except for all the others ever tried.
I can live in a society ruled by law even if imperfectly. As we have seen throughout history the alternatives eventually devolve into abuse, anarchy and war.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4841 by ringo, posted 03-17-2016 11:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4856 by ringo, posted 03-18-2016 11:58 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4853 of 5179 (780630)
03-18-2016 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 4842 by ringo
03-17-2016 11:46 AM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
It isn't the constitution that restrains the government from wielding unlimited power. Constitutions are suspended every day.
What does that even mean?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4842 by ringo, posted 03-17-2016 11:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4855 by ringo, posted 03-18-2016 11:51 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 4854 of 5179 (780646)
03-18-2016 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 4850 by NoNukes
03-17-2016 1:27 PM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
NoNukes writes:
Isn't the real question whether or not we should suspend the constitution?
No. The real question is whether or not there is any way to reverse a stupid Supreme Court ruling.
I suspect not. I suspect that calling for gun control today is like calling, "Man the pumps!" on the Titanic today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4850 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2016 1:27 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4858 by NoNukes, posted 03-18-2016 12:51 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 4855 of 5179 (780647)
03-18-2016 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 4853 by Hyroglyphx
03-18-2016 2:18 AM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
Hyroglyphx writes:
ringo writes:
It isn't the constitution that restrains the government from wielding unlimited power.
What does that even mean?
I'm glad you asked. It means that it isn't the constitution that restrains the government from wielding unlimited power.
Your next question is, "Then what does?"
It depends. For example, why did Hitler get away with seizing unlimited power in Germany? Because hardly anybody objected; they wanted him to have power.
It isn't the constitution that restrains the government; it's the will of the people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4853 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-18-2016 2:18 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4861 by Percy, posted 03-18-2016 1:44 PM ringo has replied
 Message 4862 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-19-2016 11:11 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 4856 of 5179 (780648)
03-18-2016 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 4852 by AZPaul3
03-17-2016 2:13 PM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
AZPual3 writes:
The court, split 5-4, came down on one side. The Rule of Law requires this government to act in accordance with that interpretation. Not optional.
But clearly there are options. For a right that "shall not be infringed", there's a lot of infringement going on. Every restriction on gun-keeping and gun-bearing is an infringement.
It isn't a question of whether or not you can "suspend the Constitution". It's a question of how high.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4852 by AZPaul3, posted 03-17-2016 2:13 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4857 by frako, posted 03-18-2016 12:40 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 4857 of 5179 (780654)
03-18-2016 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 4856 by ringo
03-18-2016 11:58 AM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
But it also says well regulated and milita, and its clear that guns in the US are not well regulated, and not owned by only militia members.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4856 by ringo, posted 03-18-2016 11:58 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4860 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2016 1:06 PM frako has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 4858 of 5179 (780655)
03-18-2016 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 4854 by ringo
03-18-2016 11:42 AM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
No. The real question is whether or not there is any way to reverse a stupid Supreme Court ruling.
I suspect not
The ways to accomplish such a reversal are three fold, amend the constitution, receive yet another Supreme Court ruling, or signing a treaty that adds some new feature to federal law. There are substantial obstacles to every single one of those techniques. Mostly that difficulty is a good idea, but the system is not perfect.
I suspect that calling for gun control today is like calling,"Man the pumps!" on the Titanic today
Meaning that even if we did as asked, the result would be futile? Or that the call would be ignored? I'm not sure what you are getting at with your analogy. The constitution is not an obstacle to substantial and effective gun control measures that a majority of Americans are comfortable with. Unfortunately that does not seem to be enough to get anything enacted.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4854 by ringo, posted 03-18-2016 11:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4859 by ringo, posted 03-18-2016 12:59 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 4859 of 5179 (780656)
03-18-2016 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4858 by NoNukes
03-18-2016 12:51 PM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
NoNukes writes:
I'm not sure what you are getting at with your analogy.
I didn't think you would.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4858 by NoNukes, posted 03-18-2016 12:51 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 4860 of 5179 (780658)
03-18-2016 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 4857 by frako
03-18-2016 12:40 PM


Re: Responsible Rat-Poison Owner Accidentally Rat-Poisons Six People In Isolated Incident
For a right that "shall not be infringed", there's a lot of infringement going on. Every restriction on gun-keeping and gun-bearing is an infringement.
But it also says well regulated and milita, and its clear that guns in the US are not well regulated, and not owned by only militia members.
Then obviously these interpretations are incorrect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4857 by frako, posted 03-18-2016 12:40 PM frako has not replied

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