Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Yes, The Real The New Awesome Primary Thread
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 478 (780574)
03-17-2016 9:58 AM


Let's stroll down memory lane.
AbE:
The message seems even more relevant today than in 1964.
Edited by jar, : higher quality video
Edited by jar, : see AbE:
Edited by jar, : found the confessions of a Republican ad as well

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 03-17-2016 1:06 PM jar has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 17 of 478 (780588)
03-17-2016 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
03-17-2016 9:58 AM


Re: Let's stroll down memory lane.
Good God, I remember the Daisy Spot. The other one, Confessions of a Republican, I never saw. But the Daisy Spot ... that hit home.
I was much too young to vote but coming off the Kennedy assassination and the live murder of Oswald on TV, that Spot reinforced the fact that this was a violent and evil world I was living in. A few years later I was in Vietnam. Yeah, it all runs together.
Thanks for resurrecting a nightmare.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 03-17-2016 9:58 AM jar has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 18 of 478 (780609)
03-17-2016 8:53 PM


The Sage of Foreign Policy
Donald details his foreign policy team:
quote:
"I'm speaking with myself, number one, because I have a very good brain and I've said a lot of things. I know what I'm doing, and I listen to a lot of people, I talk to a lot of people, and at the appropriate time I'll tell you who the people are. But my primary consultant is myself and I have, you know, a good instinct for this stuff."
Oh, yes! This man needs to be given the football, the button and the keys to the kingdom.
source
Should this have been in Humor?
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 03-18-2016 12:22 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 23 by Blue Jay, posted 03-18-2016 3:28 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 19 of 478 (780653)
03-18-2016 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by AZPaul3
03-17-2016 8:53 PM


Re: The Sage of Foreign Policy
Donald Trump writes:
...I have a very good brain....
Maybe he should use that one instead of his own.
Edited by ringo, : spelling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by AZPaul3, posted 03-17-2016 8:53 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2016 4:24 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 20 of 478 (780657)
03-18-2016 1:00 PM


The Donald and the Republicans
The New York Times editorial page was particularly hard on both The Donald and the Republicans today. From No, Not Trump, Not Ever:
quote:
Donald Trump is epically unprepared to be president. He has no realistic policies, no advisers, no capacity to learn. His vast narcissism makes him a closed fortress. He doesn’t know what he doesn’t know and he’s uninterested in finding out. He insults the office Abraham Lincoln once occupied by running for it with less preparation than most of us would undertake to buy a sofa.
...
This week, the Politico reporters Daniel Lippman, Darren Samuelsohn and Isaac Arnsdorf fact-checked 4.6 hours of Trump speeches and press conferences. They found more than five dozen untrue statements, or one every five minutes.
His remarks represent an extraordinary mix of inaccurate claims about domestic and foreign policy and personal and professional boasts that rarely measure up when checked against primary sources, they wrote.
He is a childish man running for a job that requires maturity. He is an insecure boasting little boy whose desires were somehow arrested at age 12. He surrounds himself with sycophants.
...
In some rare cases, political victors do not deserve our respect. George Wallace won elections, but to endorse those outcomes would be a moral failure.
And so it is with Trump.
History is a long record of men like him temporarily rising, stretching back to biblical times. Psalm 73 describes them: Therefore pride is their necklace; they clothe themselves with violence. They scoff, and speak with malice; with arrogance they threaten oppression. Their mouths lay claim to heaven, and their tongues take possession of the earth. Therefore their people turn to them and drink up waters in abundance.
And yet their success is fragile: Surely you place them on slippery ground; you cast them down to ruin. How suddenly they are destroyed.
The psalmist reminds us that the proper thing to do in the face of demagogy is to go the other way to make an extra effort to put on decency, graciousness, patience and humility, to seek a purity of heart that is stable and everlasting.
...
He has already shredded the unspoken rules of political civility that make conversation possible. In his savage regime, public life is just a dog-eat-dog war of all against all.
...
As the founders would have understood, he is a threat to the long and glorious experiment of American self-government. He is precisely the kind of scapegoating, promise-making, fear-driving and deceiving demagogue they feared.
And from Republican Elite’s Reign of Disdain:
quote:
As an angry base rejects establishment candidates in favor of you-know-who, a significant part of the party’s elite blames not itself, but the moral and character failings of the voters.
...
Last fall, the economists Anne Case and Angus Deaton attracted widespread attention with a paper showing that mortality among middle-aged white Americans, which had been declining for generations, started rising again circa 2000.
...
The question, however, is why this is happening. And the diagnosis preferred by the Republican elite is just wrong wrong in a way that helps us understand how that elite lost control of the nominating process.
Stripped down to its essence, the G.O.P. elite view is that working-class America faces a crisis, not of opportunity, but of values. That is, for some mysterious reason many of our citizens have, as Mr. Ryan puts it, lost their will and their incentive to make the most of their lives. And this crisis of values, they suggest, has been aided and abetted by social programs that make life too easy on slackers.
The problems with this diagnosis should be obvious. Tens of millions of people don’t suffer a collapse in values for no reason. Remember, several decades ago the sociologist William Julius Wilson argued that the social ills of America’s black community didn’t come out of thin air, but were the result of disappearing economic opportunity. If he was right, you would have expected declining opportunity to have the same effect on whites, and sure enough, that’s exactly what we’re seeing.
...
Meanwhile, the argument that the social safety net causes social decay by coddling slackers runs up against the hard truth that every other advanced country has a more generous social safety net than we do, yet the rise in mortality among middle-aged whites in America is unique: Everywhere else, it is continuing its historic decline.
...
But at least [Trump is] acknowledging the real problems ordinary Americans face, not lecturing them on their moral failings. And that’s an important reason he’s winning.
An aside: Given the decline in life expectancy among middle-aged whites in some regions of America, it's difficult to understand the hostile attitudes toward government subsidized health care in those same regions. Of course, it's equally difficult to understand their Republicanism in the first place, given that Republican constraints on government's ability to reign in big business are responsible for a lot of the economic mess we've been through in the last decade.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Diomedes, posted 03-18-2016 1:27 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 22 by caffeine, posted 03-18-2016 2:03 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(4)
Message 21 of 478 (780661)
03-18-2016 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Percy
03-18-2016 1:00 PM


Re: The Donald and the Republicans
Of course, it's equally difficult to understand their Republicanism in the first place, given that Republican constraints on government's ability to reign in big business are responsible for a lot of the economic mess we've been through in the last decade.
Ah, but the problem is, the masses were spoon-fed a different story. The decline in their standard of living was blamed on trade deals and illegal immigrants. That was the narrative that the Republicans have been utilizing to foster outrage in their base as a means to get them to vote.
However, as you alluded to, the true cause of the decline in their standard of living has been corporate outsourcing of manufacturing jobs to cheap labor regions. And while they may cite 'NAFTA' as being a contributor to this issue, that does not hold water. Most of the outsourcing of jobs went to countries outside of North America. Pakistan. India. China. Indonesia. Etc.
So it wasn't the poor Mexican family who snuck across the border and are now picking fruit to make ends meet that took their jobs: it was the upper echelons of corporate power that found a way to increase their margins and thereby line their own pockets.
The Donald is essentially a manifestation of all that pent up outrage. Now, the Republicans are realizing (too late) that years of rhetoric and negative campaigning have created a monster that is outside their ability to control.
Interestingly, there is similar outrage on the left which helped Bernie with the success he had up until recently. But most of that anger I think was a partial hold-over of the Occupy Wall Street types. The younger crowd who had to step into a horrible labor market in the aftermath of The Great Recession.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 03-18-2016 1:00 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 22 of 478 (780665)
03-18-2016 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Percy
03-18-2016 1:00 PM


Re: The Donald and the Republicans
An aside: Given the decline in life expectancy among middle-aged whites in some regions of America, it's difficult to understand the hostile attitudes toward government subsidized health care in those same regions. Of course, it's equally difficult to understand their Republicanism in the first place, given that Republican constraints on government's ability to reign in big business are responsible for a lot of the economic mess we've been through in the last decade.
I'm not sure the Donald's rise is entirely due to the economic woes of people in the US, for the reason that he is not an isolated case. Here in Czech Republic we have a President who's not so dissimilar to Trump (though thankfully the Presidential role here has less power). But he was not elected at a time of declining living standards. Median incomes are on the rise, and unemployment is at it's lowest level since the end of Communism. Living standards are improving, and yet people are dissatisifed.
And it's not just here. Just next door in Poland, another country with rising living standards, they recently elected a populist nationalist government, which after only a few months in power has already declared itself unbound by the decisions of the Constitutional Court, while in Slovakia - another country with rising incomes - fascist parties managed to get about 15% of the vote just a couple of weeks ago.
I can't help but feel that Trump is part of a wider pattern of growing disdain for liberal democracy in favour of populist demagoguery, of whose causes I'm unsure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 03-18-2016 1:00 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(5)
Message 23 of 478 (780666)
03-18-2016 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by AZPaul3
03-17-2016 8:53 PM


The Sage of Education
What scares me more is the idle speculation that's been going around about Trump considering Ben Carson to be "very involved with education, something that's an expertise of his."
Please, no! I don't want my kids' education to be in any way influenced by a man who concluded the pyramids at Giza are grain silos because the Bible has a story about grain storage in Egypt, and nothing else in that country was big enough.
And no, I don't care how many conjoined twins he's successfully* separated with his gifted hands: he's still not an expert on education!
* Success, as defined by Dr Ben Carson
Edited by Blue Jay, : No reason given.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by AZPaul3, posted 03-17-2016 8:53 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 24 of 478 (780672)
03-18-2016 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
03-18-2016 12:22 PM


Re: The Sage of Foreign Policy
Donald Trump writes:
...I have a very good brain....
Maybe he should use that one instead of his own.
Though he carries it with him it's not where can get to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 03-18-2016 12:22 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 25 of 478 (780677)
03-18-2016 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
03-17-2016 7:41 AM


Chicago 68, Cleveland 16
Percy writes:
Humphrey won his party's nomination back in 1968, so I had to think a minute and look up Humphrey before I could figure out the comparison you're drawing, and I'm still not sure. Is it that Trump's denial of the Republican nomination in a multi-candidate race would be like Humprey's denial of the presidency in a multi-candidate race?
From the wiki:
quote:
In 1968 the Democratic Party was divided. Senators Eugene McCarthy and Robert F. Kennedy had entered the campaign in March, challenging Johnson for the Democratic nomination. Johnson, facing dissent within his party, had dropped out of the race on March 31.[6] Vice President Hubert Humphrey then entered into the race, but did not compete in any primaries, compiling his delegates in caucus states that were controlled by party leaders. After Kennedy's assassination on June 5, the Democratic Party's divisions grew.[5] At the moment of Kennedy's death the delegate count stood at Humphrey 561.5, Kennedy 393.5, McCarthy 258.[7] Kennedy's murder left his delegates uncommitted.
When it came to choosing a candidate, on one side stood supporters of Senator McCarthy, who ran a decidedly anti-war campaign and who was seen as the peace candidate.[8] On the other side was Vice President Humphrey, who was seen as the candidate who represented the Johnson point of view.[9] In the end, the Democratic Party nominated Humphrey. Even though 80 percent of the primary voters had been for anti-war candidates, the delegates had defeated the peace plank by 1,567 to 1,041. [10] The perceived cause of this loss was the result of Mayor of Chicago Richard Daley, and President Johnson pulling strings behind the scenes.[10] Humphrey, even though he had not entered a single primary, had won the Democratic nomination, and went on to lose the election to the Republican Richard Nixon.[11]
Please note, "Even though 80 percent of the primary voters had been for anti-war candidates, the delegates had defeated the peace plank by 1,567 to 1,041."
If Trump supporters feel the will of the majority, or at least a plurality, has been thwarted by the mecanations of the minority, as happened in 1968, would they react in a similar fashion?
I think that is a definite possibility and I am not alone in this analysis.
Do you understand now why we find a similarity?
Edited by anglagard, : title and we in last sentence

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 03-17-2016 7:41 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 03-18-2016 6:10 PM anglagard has replied
 Message 29 by Percy, posted 03-18-2016 7:51 PM anglagard has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 478 (780678)
03-18-2016 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by anglagard
03-18-2016 5:51 PM


Re: Chicago 68, Cleveland 16
Point to remember.
In Chicago '68 it was the police that rioted, just as at the il Donald rallies it has been the Trump supporters who attacked protesters.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by anglagard, posted 03-18-2016 5:51 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by anglagard, posted 03-18-2016 6:51 PM jar has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(1)
Message 27 of 478 (780679)
03-18-2016 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by AZPaul3
03-17-2016 8:50 AM


Re: My Shiny Crown or Your Bloody Nose
AZPaul3 writes:
Chicago 1968 was a different scenario altogether.
Different scenario, similar cause (denial of popular will), somewhat similar outcome (police riot 68, potential supporter riot 16, but riot all the same). Please see my response to Percy. However thanks for the history lesson for those not old enough to see it all unfold on TV, who unlike ourselves did not witness it a bit firsthand as we did.
The good news is that the same could destroy the Republican party in 2016 leading to the election of anyone other than Trump or Cruz, and (we can dream) rip the Senate out of Republican hands in the meantime.
Speaking as one who is only slightly younger than you are, I think from experience we agree on hoping for the best yet preparing for the worst.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 03-17-2016 8:50 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 28 of 478 (780681)
03-18-2016 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
03-18-2016 6:10 PM


Re: Chicago 68, Cleveland 16
jar writes:
In Chicago '68 it was the police that rioted, just as at the il Donald rallies it has been the Trump supporters who attacked protesters.
Yeah, and I made the mistake of assuming everyone knew that, because I knew that.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 03-18-2016 6:10 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by NoNukes, posted 03-20-2016 11:16 AM anglagard has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 29 of 478 (780687)
03-18-2016 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by anglagard
03-18-2016 5:51 PM


Re: Chicago 68, Cleveland 16
anglagard writes:
Do you understand now why we find a similarity?
Oh, sure, I get what you were saying now, thanks for the explanation. I had interpreted what you said as comparing a Trump denial of the nomination to something Humphrey was denied, not something he denied someone else.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by anglagard, posted 03-18-2016 5:51 PM anglagard has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 478 (780764)
03-20-2016 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by anglagard
03-18-2016 6:51 PM


Re: Chicago 68, Cleveland 16
In Chicago '68 it was the police that rioted,
Yeah, and I made the mistake of assuming everyone knew that, because I knew that.
I think the distinction is relevant. It wasn't strictly voter ire that led to the riot. A lot has to do with how protests are handled. I think it is also important to note that in the end, Nixon, who was no anti-war candidate, won by a comfortable majority over two other candidates. I'm not sure any democrat could have won, but it is true that the convention riot did not help.
Imagine the following scenario. Trump goes into the convention with just short of half of the delegates and does not get the nomination. Trump then elects to run as a third party candidate. In the general election, nobody gets over 50 percent of the electoral vote, but Sanders or Clinton gets the largest percentage. Guess who gets to be president?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by anglagard, posted 03-18-2016 6:51 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 03-20-2016 11:32 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 03-20-2016 4:47 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024