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Author Topic:   James' ossuary hoax?
Tay
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 8 (77909)
01-12-2004 2:55 AM


Hello, I am new to this forum and am not sure if I am posting this in the right place so please bear with me.
My question is this. Recently there was a supposed discovery of an ossuary in Israel, said to be for a man named James, brother of Jesus?What is the final analysis? I have been told that first it was thought to be a hoax and now then I was told by a friend that they had concluded that it was not a hoax after all. Only that the means by which it was "discovered" was through an illegal transaction.
Is this true? What is the consensus that it was actually Jesus' brother James' ossuary. Are there any websites/archaelogical news sites where I can find what the most up to date info on this is?
Thanks
Tay

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2004 3:47 AM Tay has not replied
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 01-12-2004 5:14 AM Tay has not replied
 Message 4 by JIM, posted 01-12-2004 6:16 PM Tay has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2 of 8 (77917)
01-12-2004 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tay
01-12-2004 2:55 AM


I haven't heard much on this recently, but the conclusion of the committee investigating the ossuary was that at least part of the inscription (probably all of it) had been added in modern times.
In addition to the direct evidence, the owner has been very evasive on his source, had the necessary equipment and material to produce his own inscription (not all of which had legitimate uses) and is associated with another artifact also discovered to be a fraud investigated at the same time).
Here's the report from Archeology
Gold Dust and James Bond

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tay, posted 01-12-2004 2:55 AM Tay has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4977 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 8 (77922)
01-12-2004 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tay
01-12-2004 2:55 AM


Hi,
Apparently the antique collector Oded Golan has been arrested for fraud, forgery and perverting the course of justice.
Fraud
The only scholars who are clinging desperately to the authenicity of the bone box are the guys at Biblical Archaeology Review, but what else would you expect from Hershel Shanks?
It is a forgery, Christians have to deal with it.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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JIM
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 8 (78081)
01-12-2004 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tay
01-12-2004 2:55 AM


At the end of last month I addressed and did a report or more of an addenum that had came out through the Biblical Archaeological Review that claimed to have found indirect evidence of the existence of Jesus. This evidence was an ancient limestone bone burial box, called an ossuary, that dated from around the time of the biblical James' death. An translation of the inscription on the box was put forth as, "James son of Joseph, brother of Jesus". Naturally, Christians immediately claimed that this must be referring to the biblical James and Jesus of Nazareth, despite the fact that these three names were quite common during those times.
Rochelle I. Altman, who is an expert on scripts and a historian of writing systems just recently examined the inscription on the box and concluded that, while the bone-box and the first half of the inscription are both authentic, the second half of the inscription - the part that refers to Jesus and the part that has caused all the hoopla - "is a poorly executed fake and a later addition."
Altman gives us three points to keep in mind when thinking about ossuaries:
1) "According to Rahmani (1981, 1982) on Jerusalem burial practices, most ossuaries are from the period between 30/20 BCE-70 CE -- but by no means all."
2) "Human remains are not dug up and displaced without very good reasons. Ossuaries show up in quantity when burial space is at a premium." In other words, an ossuary isn't a sign of the popularity of the person.
3) "While today, grave markers are carved by pros, this was not the case in these Jewish ossuary inscriptions. The apparently wide variations in ossuary inscriptions come from a simple fact: these ossuary inscriptions are covenants, vows to affirm continuing respect for the deceased in spite of having disinterred his/her remains. As with any other vow, the text must be in the hand of the one making the vow. Thus (as is noted in the literature), a surviving member of the family painted on, or scratched into, the (usually) limestone box the memorial data. In some cases a professional would carve over the handwriting exactly as written."
Altman translates the original text as: "Jacob son of Joseph brother of Joshua" and concludes that it was written by two different people. How does she come to this conclusion? Two points:
1) The first part of the script is formal - "The person who wrote the first part of the inscription [Jacob son of Josepth] was necessarily a surviving member of the family. He was fully literate; he clearly was familiar with the formal square script (those cuneiform wedges), the writing is internally consistent, and this part of the inscription is his expertly written holograph."
2) The second part of the script is informal - "None of the forms in the second part agree with the script of the first part. The person who wrote the second part [Brother of Joshua] may have been literate, but it is doubtful that he was literate in Aramaic or Hebrew. Again, aberrant spelling is dismissed as dialectic. True, there are dialectic variants, but there is always some linguistic logic behind these variants. There is nothing logical about these misspellings. They smell of someone guessing how the words "brother of" and the name "Joshua" would have been spelled a couple, three hundred years earlier. Once again, the writing in this part is internally consistent in its semi-literacy. Part 2 has the characteristics of a later addition by someone attempting to imitate an unfamiliar script and write in an unfamiliar language."
She goes on to note that since the text is excised (as opposed to inscribed, or incised), it should be bounded within a frame. Yet, the original frame is missing and the second part of the inscription would have lied outside of it. "To anybody who knows something about anti-fraud techniques as practiced in antiquity, it is rather obvious. The frame was removed to add the second part of this inscription." This suggests that the "Brother of Jesus" text was added at a much later date.
Altman concludes her report with, "If the entire inscription on the ossuary is genuine, then somebody has to explain why there are two hands of clearly different levels of literacy and two different scripts. They also have to explain why the second hand did not know how to write 'brother of' in Aramaic or even spell 'Joshua'. Further, they had better explain where the frame has gone."
"The ossuary itself is undoubtedly genuine; the well executed and formal first part of the inscription is a holographic original by a literate (and wealthy) survivor of Jacob Ben Josef in the 1st century CE. The second part of the inscription bears the hallmarks of a fraudulent later addition and is questionable to say the least."
Whether or not Altman's conclusions are correct - and I see no reason to doubt them - the fact that the most significant portion of the inscription, the part that refers to Jesus, is "questionable" should raise enough doubt to quiet believers for now.
To see the full report, click here
[This message has been edited by JIM, 01-12-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 8 (78100)
01-12-2004 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
01-12-2004 5:14 AM


You make it sound like it is hard to deal with, the finding of an ossuary doesn't make the slightest difference to me at all, Hoax or not.

Revelation 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 01-12-2004 5:14 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by NosyNed, posted 01-12-2004 9:35 PM joshua221 has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 6 of 8 (78110)
01-12-2004 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by joshua221
01-12-2004 8:42 PM


Good again
Geez, Right again IM. It doesn't matter.
It seems that some of those with a weaker faith require some solid proof of the existance of at least a man called Jesus who fits some of the biblical criteria. Same thing with the shroud of Turin I guess.
It is odd that some of those who rile against science the most are just the ones who seem desparate to clutch at any "scientific" "proof" of what they are supposed to be able to take on faith.
It is hard to understand how poorly they learn the lessons of history. If you hitch your faith on this world and on particular things about it you run the risk of having your faith overrun by new knowledge of how the world actually is. This keeps happening. Some people never learn.

Common sense isn't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by joshua221, posted 01-12-2004 8:42 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by joshua221, posted 03-23-2004 8:29 PM NosyNed has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 8 (94258)
03-23-2004 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by NosyNed
01-12-2004 9:35 PM


Re: Good again
So a 'weaker faith' is what you are calling Christianity?
What would a "weaker faith" mean exactly?
One that relies on certain unreliable statements?

The earth is flat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by NosyNed, posted 01-12-2004 9:35 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 8 of 8 (94271)
03-23-2004 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by joshua221
03-23-2004 8:29 PM


Re: Good again
No, I am not calling Christianity a weaker faith.
It is the minority form of a number of religions that demands that there be hard proof of thier beliefs that is weak.
In particular, fundamentalist, literalist Christianity that demands that their particular, perculiar interpretation of the Bible be supported by scientific evidence is clearly a weak form of faith.
They feel that if the earth isn't 6,000 years old or if there was not global flood then their faith is destroyed. They feel this so strongly that they project these ideas onto scientists and actually think that those scientist are trying to destroy the faith.
Actually, what they have done is put their faith up to a test that is has to fail. It is the literalists who are working hard to destroy faith by demanding that it be taken not on faith but on hard evidence. This faith is weak, it has to have support by evidence or they can't believe.
The majority of Christians have a much stronger faith.

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 Message 7 by joshua221, posted 03-23-2004 8:29 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
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