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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 61 of 591 (780995)
03-29-2016 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
03-29-2016 2:35 PM


Re: Repent Or Perish
1Pe 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
If judgment begins with the Church, it's because the Church has committed sins, and therefore repentance has to begin with the Church too. As the prophet Daniel confessed the sins of Israel as if he himself had committed them all, that attitude on the part of believers today would go a long way toward slowing down God's judgment. Most of us pray for the nation but how organized is it, and how much repentance do we do as part of it?
We have had Presidents in the past who called for a day of prayer and fasting and repentance for various reasons, such as anticipating war. I don't think that's going to happen any more. Even if Cruz became President, who is the only current contender who might be expected to do it, I rather doubt he'd be able to call for such a day given the general attitude of the nation toward religion.
It's the NATIONAL level sins that call down judgment on a nation, more than it is personal sins, but if personal sins are treated as acceptable I'm sure that adds to the problem. I think of legalized abortion as a major one of course, nothing short of legalized murder, and legalized means the blood is on the hands of the government, and that's what brings God's judgment against the nation as a whole. That's the way it was in ancient Israel too. One major thing we need to repent of. The Churches can do that but most of America thinks it's a woman's right so a general repentance isn't going to happen. We could also count the removal of prayer from the schools. Righto, another "progressive" move on the part of the powers that be, who of course think all religions are the same, and misread the First Amendment to treat school religious exercises as violating the separation of church and state. There is the liberalization of laws concerning divorce (scripture says "God hates divorce." I doubt He likes it any more when Americans do it than anybody else.) All sorts of "sexual freedoms" are now tolerated and even rewarded such as by welfare help through the government for single mothers and so on. Social disintegration is one of God's judgments. I'm sure I'm leaving out lots of sins. I do think Hollywood is a major contributor to the general sin level. Gay marriage doesn't come in to this until very recently and that has to be added to the list.
What chance do you see with a list of sins like that against us in this age of Political Correctness that the nation would ever repent of them and come back under God's blessings?
Not much, right?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 2:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2016 11:39 PM Faith has replied
 Message 74 by PaulK, posted 03-30-2016 7:49 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 591 (781007)
03-29-2016 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
03-29-2016 1:49 PM


Re: Hurricane Yahweh
Faith writes:
I recognized 9-11 as God's judgment on America, but it was a very mild judgment, more of a warning. More to come if we don't repent. Well we aren't repenting and I think more has been steadily coming all these years since 9-11. I think God is using Islam to punish Europe, and we're next.
That's a really stupid playground bully of a god you are marketing there Faith; one that's more than happy to punish the weak and innocent instead of persuasion. A coward and clown incapable of behavior acceptable in polite company.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 03-29-2016 1:49 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 9:56 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 591 (781011)
03-29-2016 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
03-29-2016 8:09 PM


Re: Hurricane Yahweh
How does Faiths God differ from the God of the Old Testament...say in Ezekiel 9-10.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 03-29-2016 8:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 03-29-2016 10:29 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 64 of 591 (781013)
03-29-2016 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
03-29-2016 9:56 PM


Re: Hurricane Yahweh
Many of the Gods of the Old Testament were real assholes. The God character in Exodus is a great example, one that changes Pharaohs mind just so she can show off.
That God and so many of the other Old Testament Gods were fearful nasty shallow horrific critters that should be feared.
The God of Ezekiel is slightly different.
Ezekiel is also simply mythology, a fantasy; typical of folk tales and morality plays and mythology. Zeke is a mythology in three parts, and needs to be seen as a whole and not quote mined. In the myth there is first the judgement of Israel, then the judgement of the other Nations and finally a hope of redemption as a conclusion.
You need to place Ezekiel in the proper era and location, Babylon during the captivity. At that time Babylon was a mostly secular, tolerant cosmopolitan city where Jews had opportunities far beyond what they had experience in the past. They found themselves being accepted into the general society as individuals, as Babylonians and the very separateness and exclusiveness that characterized being Israeli was being challenged.
Ezekiel is a call to move away from secularism and inclusion, a call to return to exclusion and separatism and to retreat from the world at large and return to the land Israel and the Temple. It precedes the actual return under Cyrus and the building of the Second Temple.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 9:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 10:39 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 65 of 591 (781014)
03-29-2016 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
03-29-2016 10:29 PM


Re: Hurricane Yahweh
Ezekiel is a call to move away from secularism and inclusion, a call to return to exclusion and separatism and to retreat from the world at large...
Isnt that the same reasoning that a lot of the modern day Christians seek? Exclude ourselves from the Pagan idolaters who worship football, cars, money, and internet porn. exclude and isolate themselves in the walls of the church buildings and build a wall between us and the rest of the world?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 03-29-2016 10:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 03-30-2016 8:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 591 (781015)
03-29-2016 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
03-28-2016 5:32 PM


Re: God Unplugged
What is the difference between a man who believes in God yet admits he is likely wrong regarding his understanding, and an agnostic?
In either case both answers are at least honest and humble. I guess it depends. What I like to ask in my mind is: what is the cause for the belief in the first place? Whenever somebody believes something to be true, something must first precede that belief -- a precipitating reason for entertaining the notion at all.
For an agnostic, most are admittedly indifferent. It could be true, it could also not be true. Maybe both seem equally probable and improbable. But it seems to me the difference is that one believes and the other is abstaining until there is a compelling reason to believe.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 03-28-2016 5:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 591 (781016)
03-29-2016 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
03-29-2016 1:15 PM


Re: Hurricane Yahweh
Why is it that people think God causes tragedies? Do you personally believe that He does? Why or why not?
Why do people think God creates miracles? People in a life-threatening situation who have survived are quick to praise God for saving them... but what of the countless people who have prayed to God to spare them, and yet they have still met painful, tragic ends? And what of the repentless people who have survived without asking for it?
What of young children born with some horrific genetic abnormality; something like Harlequin babies. How many prayers does it take to restore them to health? The answer is 0, because it's never been done.
We can deduce with 100% accuracy that God does NOT honor all prayers. Would you agree? So it seems that it's all a crap shoot either way. And what does that tell you about God? It either tells you that he is selective or.... that he's simply not there and that his existence is nothing more than a comforting thought that you would prefer to be real, but in fact is not. On some level you must be able to recognize that God is something you are choosing to believe versus something self-evident otherwise you wouldn't even ask these questions. So surely you must be wrestling with these ideas already. You're just looking for compelling reasons to continue to believe in things you'd prefer to be true because your faith is close to running on fumes at this point.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 1:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 03-30-2016 2:21 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 68 of 591 (781017)
03-29-2016 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
03-29-2016 3:38 PM


Re: Repent Or Perish
If judgment begins with the Church, it's because the Church has committed sins, and therefore repentance has to begin with the Church too. As the prophet Daniel confessed the sins of Israel as if he himself had committed them all, that attitude on the part of believers today would go a long way toward slowing down God's judgment.
What's the point of "slowing down God's judgment" if the outcome is already written in stone? The bible is the ultimate spoiler alert since you know the ending before it comes... and if you believe the bible to be authentic, then why not just let things come to pass as they were preordained to and worry about your walk with God?
Even if Cruz became President, who is the only current contender who might be expected to do it, I rather doubt he'd be able to call for such a day given the general attitude of the nation toward religion.
Even if he did, so what? Would it matter? People are responsible for themselves. Sin and immorality don't suddenly vanish just because the POTUS makes a "call to prayer."
It's the NATIONAL level sins that call down judgment on a nation
Which is hilarious considering the bible discusses how we should not be held liable for the Sins of the Father. And then in other versus it says we are expected to pay for the Sins of the Father. With such inconsistency, it calls the whole thing in to question.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 03-29-2016 3:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 03-30-2016 1:21 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 03-30-2016 7:06 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 69 of 591 (781021)
03-30-2016 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Hyroglyphx
03-29-2016 11:39 PM


Re: Repent Or Perish
why not just let things come to pass as they were preordained to and worry about your walk with God?
Because its not MY walk

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2016 11:39 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-30-2016 1:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 591 (781022)
03-30-2016 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
03-30-2016 1:21 AM


Re: Repent Or Perish
Because its not MY walk
Whose walk is it then?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 03-30-2016 1:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 71 of 591 (781023)
03-30-2016 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Hyroglyphx
03-29-2016 11:28 PM


Re: Hurricane Yahweh
Not Quite
My faith remains strong

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2016 11:28 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-30-2016 2:58 AM Phat has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 591 (781025)
03-30-2016 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
03-30-2016 2:21 AM


Re: Hurricane Yahweh
Not Quite
My faith remains strong
I'm asking for you to flesh out some of your ideas because I don't quite know what you mean

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 03-30-2016 2:21 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 04-02-2016 8:07 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 73 of 591 (781027)
03-30-2016 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Hyroglyphx
03-29-2016 11:39 PM


Re: Repent Or Perish
What's the point of "slowing down God's judgment" if the outcome is already written in stone?
Who said it was set in stone? Recognizing that we're already under judgment and more is yet to come is a call to repentance so that God may relent. I firmly believe that if there was a great movement of Christian repentance and revival among the churches we could turn back His judgment. Especially if revival brought many others to belief who would join us in the cause.
I don't see how one could argue against slowing down the arrival of a miserable future in any case.
Even the very last days which we are all anticipating, God's final judgment on the entire planet, which ARE "set in stone" in that we know what's going to happen, I believe can be put off if the Church repents and prays and turns back some of the reasons for it. The only reason it can't be put off indefinitely is that we don't have enough fervor and determination to keep petitioning God to do it. Otherwise even the end days could be put off "forever."
The bible is the ultimate spoiler alert since you know the ending before it comes... and if you believe the bible to be authentic, then why not just let things come to pass as they were preordained to and worry about your walk with God?
Why would you think a person's "walk with God" wouldn't include petitioning Him to save the nation? Or the world? Or millions of people who don't believe in Him? That IS our walk with God or a big part of it. Abraham pleaded for Sodom. Moses pleaded for God's errant people. That's our model.
Even if Cruz became President, who is the only current contender who might be expected to do it, I rather doubt he'd be able to call for such a day given the general attitude of the nation toward religion.
Even if he did, so what? Would it matter? People are responsible for themselves. Sin and immorality don't suddenly vanish just because the POTUS makes a "call to prayer."
Oh ye of little faith. If the nation joined him in such a prayer I have no doubt things would change in important ways. Attitudes here and there would change, new people would become voices for returning to God, maybe we'd get a powerful new political leader. Things have to change first in the church and then in the leadership of the nation.
It's the NATIONAL level sins that call down judgment on a nation
Which is hilarious considering the bible discusses how we should not be held liable for the Sins of the Father. And then in other versus it says we are expected to pay for the Sins of the Father. With such inconsistency, it calls the whole thing in to question.
The "sins of the fathers" continue to be visited down the generations. This is about generational inheritance of sin. It includes a tendency in the children to the same sins as the fathers as well as judgment against those sins, and this is part of the operation of God's law, it's not something that could be rescinded. And it's about family lineage, just as the entire human race inherits the sin nature of our father Adam, it's not about national sin. I think you've got two different things confused. One thing a believer has is the certainty that the scripture does not contradict itself. If it seems to, that merely means you haven't grasped what it is saying.
We are judged for our own sins, but unfortunately we also still have the tendencies of our ancestors -- although knowing these things gives us strength to resist the temptations that come to us through this route, and we suffer the consequences in any case.
But God still judges whole nations that reject His Law and approve of sins He disapproves of. "Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD..." (Psalm 33). Do you think it's just an historical accident that the Roman Empire collapsed under the assaults of invaders? That formerly great nations are now completely eclipsed as world powers? Greece? Egypt? Persia? Babylon?
We're told in the New Testament that the Old Testament was given for our instruction. If we learn nothing else from it we should learn that God judges nations.
HERE's an interesting article on the passages you consider to be contradictory. It explains that we inherit the sin but that we are not to be punished by human legal systems for any but our own.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2016 11:39 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 74 of 591 (781029)
03-30-2016 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
03-29-2016 3:38 PM


State-mandated prayers are required?
quote:
We could also count the removal of prayer from the schools
Why? What makes that a sin? Its not even as if the prayers are guaranteed to be Faith-approved "Christian" prayers. You can bet that there would be a lot of Mormon prayers in Utah schools, Catholic prayers in other places, maybe even Muslim prayers.
quote:
Righto, another "progressive" move on the part of the powers that be, who of course think all religions are the same, and misread the First Amendment to treat school religious exercises as violating the separation of church and state.
No, just the obvious fact that State-sponsored prayers are an establishment of religion and therefore contrary to the First Amenment as intended by James Madison and Thomas Jefferson. (Oh, and do you have any objection to Judaism ? The lead plaintiff in Engel v Vitale was a Jew and Jewish organisations supported him)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 03-29-2016 3:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 75 of 591 (781031)
03-30-2016 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
03-29-2016 10:39 PM


Re: Hurricane Yahweh
Phat writes:
Isnt that the same reasoning that a lot of the modern day Christians seek? Exclude ourselves from the Pagan idolaters who worship football, cars, money, and internet porn. exclude and isolate themselves in the walls of the church buildings and build a wall between us and the rest of the world?
Yup, much of today's Christianity, particularly the Christian Cult of Ignorance is exactly like that and of course the exact opposite of what Jesus taught.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 10:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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