Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,821 Year: 3,078/9,624 Month: 923/1,588 Week: 106/223 Day: 4/13 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Message of the Bible
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 176 of 213 (78113)
01-12-2004 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Yaro
01-12-2004 1:10 AM


Because when Adam/Eve sinned in the Garden they were driven out by God. In essence, they were cut-off from the Source of Life (God).
Their disobedience gave Satan/serpent temporary ownershio of the world. Thats what was up for grabs in the Tree test.
Every person born since then is also born separated from the Source of Life because of them (Adam/Eve).
Is this fair ?
Irrelevant. But if you ask me it is clearly unfair but my view reflects the view of every person in the world. God doesn't apologize for this or explain it. He declares that we are born outside the Garden unable to relate to the source of our life : God.
We are born under the jurisdiction of Satan who controls the world.
This is the context of all the horror in the O.T.
Man sinning under the influence of Satan and with the knowledge of good and evil. This deadly combination proves God right "if you touch of that God-damn tree you will surely die"
The murderous horror of the O.T. is derived from Satan and his reign as the god of this world. He only cares about exploiting our inherited evil Adamic nature. He incites sin which carries the penalty of death.
Why did God allow this ?
Because we are on trial to see if we will use our free will to trust God to keep His word. Adam/Eve failed, but we face the same type of trial in that the rest of the Bible makes it clear that IF man intends to relate to God via the pursuit of good over evil then "you will surely die"
The Bible is clear works do not save. Only faith in His word of promise.
Yaro, you wrongly assume those tribes had no knowledge of God.
Those tribes rejected God, that is the reason why God wiped them out.
It is actually quite simple.
The murderous rampages of the O.T. is the result of a world operated by Satan. He got ownership of the world via the Garden incident. Why do you think he offerred Jesus the world if He would bow down and worship him ?
Jesus never contested his claim that he owned the world.
God has a salvation plan - Satan exists to frustrate it and make people fail.
All the death in the O.T. testifies to the seriousness of sin.
Am I blaming the devil ?
Yes, because it is true.
But God holds the sinner accountable, Satan only wants to destroy that which God loves because this is his only avenue to hurt God for His refusal to forgive him of his rebellious mutiny.
We have free will, there is a devil tempting us to mis use it.
The O.T. is a record of God's hands being tied and prevented from helping fallen man because of our sins. This is why the sacrifices of the O.T. are so important, and the greatest sacrifice of all - Christ's.
Because of Jesus, God can now not violate the integrity of His word and rescue us from our evil nature.
Yaro, your assumption that whoever had no knowledge of God is purely subjective. All the ancients believed in God. It is only this modern yuppie trash generation that rejects His existence based upon their desire to not want a Boss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Yaro, posted 01-12-2004 1:10 AM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 01-12-2004 10:03 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 178 by sidelined, posted 01-12-2004 10:16 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 187 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 01-14-2004 3:37 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 179 of 213 (78119)
01-12-2004 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Thom
01-12-2004 2:09 AM


Good question !
The Bible makes it clear that everything has a course to run.
This includes mankind's jurisdiction under the law of Moses, which the New Testament says was a shadow cast by the substance of Christ
The entire O.T. period until Jesus prophesied of Him in word, types and symbolism. It was basically an introduction of Jesus Christ.
The soveriegnty of God decided the length of the course until He manifested His Son.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Thom, posted 01-12-2004 2:09 AM Thom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by crashfrog, posted 01-12-2004 10:38 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 182 by Thom, posted 01-13-2004 12:49 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 181 of 213 (78134)
01-12-2004 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Brian
01-11-2004 6:19 AM


Thank you for your post encouraging a relaxed pace. I realize people like yourself have responsibilities and a life to live.
A person responds when they respond - please do not ever feel you must hurry a reply to me.
I am actually very happy that a debater finally understood my simple request that something be assumed. I want to reiterate that I understand that you are assuming the claim that the Bible claims to be the word of God. I also undersatand that you do not believe the Bible to be the word of God.
The entire Protestant and Catholic church worlds maintain that the Bible contains/is the eternal word of God.
The canon of scripture is a very voluminous subject. Wars have been fought regarding this very question (what is the word of God).
In Luke 4, Jesus read from Isaiah. The source He read from was the Septuagint which was the "Bible" in those times.
The Septuagint was a greek translation of the O.T. hebrew.
This begins the basis for the authority of what record contains the word of God. Jesus used the Septuagint, thus we have His stamp of approval concerning this source.
Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, and His followers since His resurrection have by consensus decided a criteria by which they have determined what is the inspired word of God and what is not.
I submit that there is no "harm" in assuming the Bible to be the word of God. If it is not, then there is only harm to those who hold this erroneous belief, and no harm to those who do not.
If a person does not believe there is a God then it is pointless to argue or debate whether a certain source contains His word. If a person assumes the claim then there is a reference base to argue His existence and/or the claims found therein.
You say "....it is impossible for a God not to know anything..."
Brian, what is the source of this belief concerning God ?
I only said that there was ONE exception to the omniscience of God, then I offered some evidence contained in a source claiming to be His word, which if true is a record of what the Author wants known.
Genesis 22:12 says " ....now I know ..." (God speaking) This clearly indicates that until this moment God did not know something.
I submit that God does not know FOR CERTAIN if a person will use their free will to trust Him or not given the oportunity to do otherwise. Until you do what you do (in this very specific context defined as to trust or not to trust) God does not know. He is prepared in either case to react accordingly.
The Fall ( as you put it ) was a free will test that God did not know the outcome for sure until Adam/Eve actually did what they did.
Why is it folklore ?
Because there are similar stories in existence fact or fiction ? The claim is that the Genesis account is the protected version, the guarded facts and the others unguarded by God. This explains the similarities of the other stories and there differences. It strongly evidences a source that all these stories have and their common denominators. If the claim is true that the Bible is the word of God then the Genesis account becomes the logical choice to be that source.
Moving on......
How could God know if Satan would rebel ?
He could predict, He could prepare, but He cannot know for certain IF the being in question has free will.
If God knew Satan would rebel, then Satan could claim that he was set up. And if God told Satan that he would rebel then Satan could say "but I haven't and I won't " . This is why God does not know for certain what a free will person will do (context alredy defined) UNTIL they actually do it.
You say I can have my one exception to His omniscience but it proves that He does not exist. What is the source of this belief ?
Moving on....
Why are things learned in Sunday School not true ?
I am not the least bit insulted (not that you intended insult) that you compared my theology to something you hold as borderline ridiculous.
Why, tell me why, my theology is extinct ?
My level of theological education is equivalent to any MBA degree in a major university.
To equate Sunday School with ridiculous is clearly understood, but NOT to exclude the truth from this analogy also indicts the information contained in the source (the Bible) as ridiculous, and remember we are assuming this source to be His word.
As far as YOUR ending statement concerning the message of the Bible - I would have to completely agree with this statement to be perfectly compatible with my belief as to what the message of the Bible is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Brian, posted 01-11-2004 6:19 AM Brian has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 193 of 213 (78523)
01-14-2004 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Rand Al'Thor
01-14-2004 3:37 AM


The purpose of this reply is to let you know that I read your post.
First, your belief that I am personally demonizing individual atheists is not true. Whatever agruments I direct at atheists are meant toward their ideology.
In other topics I have repeatedly said atheists are brilliant and it is not a matter of opinion. Theists make me more mad than any atheist ever could.
Because, in another topic, you made some sarcastic comment about Dr. Scott, I will use this as an excuse to say the following.
I believe Dr. Scott is the greatest scholar alive. And it is atheists who made Dr. Scott what he is. It was atheists who trained, educated, and promoted Dr. Scott at Stanford. Dr. Scott called these men " men of renoun....men who have more integrity in the tip of their little finger than all of the christians I have ever met..."
These atheists taught him that you WILL ONLY conclude based upon proven facts. If a fact is introduced that contradicts something you have already spoken up for then you must rearrange your beliefs instantly to reflect that fact.
These atheists produced the brightest mind of our generation and the greatest authority in Biblical doctrine alive today.
Some people call what I said hero worship - I believe it is self evident truth. But let not my view of Dr. Scott steal the limelight - the brilliant of the brilliant, the atheist Professors of Stanford circa 1950's are the hero's and their methodolgy for determining truth.
As far as the substance of your post, I honestly believe that your understanding of the claims of basic christianity are far too incomplete to have any type of meaningful debate.
If you cannot at least demonstrate a basic knowledge as to what Jesus di on the cross then we have nothing to debate. I am not intending to insult you at all but I cannot debate with someone that doesn't understand the basics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 01-14-2004 3:37 AM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by sidelined, posted 01-15-2004 7:40 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 206 of 213 (78956)
01-16-2004 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by sidelined
01-15-2004 7:40 AM


Because you are pressing me for a response I will give it to you.
I am having a hard time discerning how serious some debaters are, especially when they appear to be ignorant of basic christianity.
I believe you are questioning the efficacy of what Jesus did on the cross. Specifically, you are hung up with the fact that anyone can in theory be forgiven of all their sins no matter what they have done.
Basic theology teaches us that the penalty of sin is death, and that sin cannot be capriciously forgiven by God unless sufficent payment is made, unless atonement accomplished.
The requirement of God's word as expressed in His law demanded that blood be spilled as payment for sins. All of the animal sacrifices of the O.T. were types, micro-paradigms of what Jesus would do on the cross. The law required a firstborn lamb that had no spot or blemish to be sacrificed for sins. Jesus fulfilled all these types, (firstborn, spotless = sinless, no blemishes = perfect). God, validated Jesus's offering of Himself to be adequate payment for every sin ever committed, past, present, and future. This is why Jesus cried out on the cross asking the Father why He forsook Him. God transfered onto Jesus every sin ever committed. This means Jesus became the sin-bearer forsaken by God in those moments. He paid for sin by suffering on the cross.
IF a person turns to God and seeks forgiveness of their sins via what Jesus did then God promises to forgive them. God remembers that His Son paid for these sins and on this basis He can and will forgive a person of all their sins.
You ask HOW DOES this happen ? How can a vile evil person be forgiven.
When Jesus died, God validated His sacrifice to be adequate payment of every sin ever committed past, present, and future. The only catch is that any person wanting to be forgiven MUST receive this forgiveness by a continual act of faith.
All ths sins of the world are paid for but they are not actually forgiven to any given person until they appropriate what Christ did for them by faith.
The most vile and despicable crimes against humanity CAN/COULD be forgiven because this is how GREAT the sacrifice of Christ was.
You become forgiven by turning to God by faith in what Jesus did. You remain forgiven IF you continue relating to God in the exact same manner as when you first turned to Him (faith).
You are under the false belief that any person can buy an insurance policy for eternity by accepting Jesus through some one time experience and be forgiven forever regardless of what they do the rest of their life. This is Baptist theological nonsense of "once saved always saved".
You are only forgiven IF you are relating to Jesus via faith, which is not a one time altar call thing. And if someone thinks that Jesus will give you a license to go on sinning, then this is heresy refuted by Paul in Romans chapter 6.
God will forgive anything, if you act in faith upon the truth of the cross. You remain forgiven by continuing with God the same way you started. (Hebrews 3:14)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by sidelined, posted 01-15-2004 7:40 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 01-17-2004 2:36 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 210 by sidelined, posted 01-17-2004 7:40 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 211 of 213 (79279)
01-18-2004 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Rand Al'Thor
01-17-2004 2:36 AM


What made the suffering of Christ greater than anyone elses suffering ?
This is your question and here is the answer :
Jesus was the only person to ever live who never committed a single sin, Jesus's suffering was voluntary on His part, and it was unfair because He didn't deserve it.
Jesus suffered because He chose to so the price would be paid for all sins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 01-17-2004 2:36 AM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by sidelined, posted 01-18-2004 5:26 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024