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Author Topic:   How does a flood ...
starlite
Member (Idle past 1753 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 16 of 206 (781305)
04-03-2016 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Coyote
04-03-2016 10:42 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
The same evidence we have for any depositing. What evidence (besides fantasy radioactive decay based dating) is there for slow deposit?? The door swings both ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Coyote, posted 04-03-2016 10:42 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Coyote, posted 04-03-2016 11:07 PM starlite has responded
 Message 27 by Pressie, posted 04-04-2016 6:04 AM starlite has not yet responded
 Message 28 by Pressie, posted 04-04-2016 8:03 AM starlite has not yet responded
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 945 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 17 of 206 (781308)
04-03-2016 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by starlite
04-03-2016 10:49 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
The same evidence we have for any depositing. What evidence (besides fantasy radioactive decay based dating) is there for slow deposit?? The door swings both ways.

No, it doesn't. The evidence is overwhelming in one direction, and that is an old earth.

I have personally obtained probably 200 radiocarbon dates older than the claimed date of the flood, and quite a few older than the young earth claims. Every "explanation" I've seen from young earthers as to why these dates are older than their belief claims I have found to be abject nonsense. So, you don't just get to claim radioactive decay dating is "fantasy." You have to present evidence.

If you disagree, there are other threads here devoted to this subject where you can present your evidence. But beware, there are a few of us here who actually work with radiometric dates and have some real knowledge of the subject. Perhaps you need to read those threads first and save us the pain of repeating refutations for the nth time.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 10:49 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 11:20 PM Coyote has responded

  
starlite
Member (Idle past 1753 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 18 of 206 (781311)
04-03-2016 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Coyote
04-03-2016 11:07 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
No it isn't. Get over it. As for the so called dates you obtained, they would have zero meaning if the daughter material was already here when decay started right? So...was it here? How do you know? Answer well or your dates are religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Coyote, posted 04-03-2016 11:07 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Coyote, posted 04-03-2016 11:29 PM starlite has responded
 Message 29 by JonF, posted 04-04-2016 8:30 AM starlite has not yet responded
 Message 30 by Pressie, posted 04-04-2016 8:33 AM starlite has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 945 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 19 of 206 (781312)
04-03-2016 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by starlite
04-03-2016 11:20 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
No it isn't. Get over it. As for the so called dates you obtained, they would have zero meaning if the daughter material was already here when decay started right? So...was it here? How do you know? Answer well or your dates are religion.

Your post shows you know nothing about radiocarbon dating.

Stay away from those creationist sites: they lie to you.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 11:20 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 11:32 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
starlite
Member (Idle past 1753 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 20 of 206 (781313)
04-03-2016 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Coyote
04-03-2016 11:29 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
Where's the beef? You think what exactly? You think the daughter material could not have been there because it is now produced by decay? Or..? Stay away from whatever taught you stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Coyote, posted 04-03-2016 11:29 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-04-2016 2:11 AM starlite has responded
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 Message 34 by Pressie, posted 04-04-2016 8:52 AM starlite has responded
 Message 91 by dwise1, posted 04-05-2016 10:35 AM starlite has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 21 of 206 (781314)
04-04-2016 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by starlite
04-03-2016 10:47 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
The flood did not deposit all the layers that is a silly strawman.

it can't be a straw man if some creationists believe it, and I'm one who does.

Maybe you should describe how they deposited over hundreds of years according to your view.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 10:47 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 2:17 AM Faith has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 22 of 206 (781322)
04-04-2016 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by starlite
04-03-2016 11:32 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
Where's the beef? You think what exactly? You think the daughter material could not have been there because it is now produced by decay? Or..? Stay away from whatever taught you stuff.

In radiocarbon dating, one does not measure the daughter isotope (14N) --- as you could have found out with half a minute's research into the method. Your false assumption that the method involves 14N makes arrant nonsense of your reply to Coyote's post. I suggest that in future you should research more and assume less.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 11:32 PM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 2:19 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
starlite
Member (Idle past 1753 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 23 of 206 (781323)
04-04-2016 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
04-04-2016 1:01 AM


Re: different causes for different layers?
Yes it can, because one cannot use that to describe creationists. How could layers be deposited faster than today? Well, maybe a lot of things were just not the way they are now. What if there were fountains of the deep bringing up water every day in some area? That would mean a lot of ebb and flow in nearby areas, no? What if plants grew a lot faster? That would mean that a lot more layers could be produced, no? Etc etc.

The real question is why should we assume it was slow?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 04-04-2016 1:01 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 04-04-2016 2:31 AM starlite has responded
 Message 32 by JonF, posted 04-04-2016 8:48 AM starlite has not yet responded

  
starlite
Member (Idle past 1753 days)
Posts: 83
Joined: 04-03-2016


Message 24 of 206 (781324)
04-04-2016 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Dr Adequate
04-04-2016 2:11 AM


Re: different causes for different layers?
Actually the ratios are measured and the daughter parent ratio is used. You kidding? In the future I suggest you don't come off sounding like a know it all when you aren't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-04-2016 2:11 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-04-2016 2:24 AM starlite has not yet responded
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 25 of 206 (781325)
04-04-2016 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by starlite
04-04-2016 2:19 AM


Re: different causes for different layers?
Actually the ratios are measured and the daughter parent ratio is used. You kidding? In the future I suggest you don't come off sounding like a know it all when you aren't.

You are wrong, as you could find out by spending half a minute looking at literally any resource that tells you how radiocarbon dating works.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 2:19 AM starlite has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 26 of 206 (781326)
04-04-2016 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by starlite
04-04-2016 2:17 AM


Re: different causes for different layers?
Hey Starlite, it's nice to have a new creationist here, but it would help a lot if you would stop thrashing around and skipping from thread to thread and blowing steam out your ears or whatever you're doing. Slow down, calm down, try to formulate a whole argument instead of throwing out one-liners. You're going to get eaten alive here if you keep on at your current pace.

The fact remains that if some creationists believe the Flood made ALL the strata, then to say so is NOT A STRAW MAN. it's simple logic. Stop fighting it.

I already agreed that MOST creationists don't believe this, though I think they are wrong.

How could layers be deposited faster than today?

There is absolutely nothing similar between the way sediments deposit today and the way a worldwide Flood would have deposited them. I don't know why you have such a question. The layers extend across huge geographical areas, for instance, whole continents in some cases. That is NOT happening today. A huge depth of water heavy with sediments and dead things is not the same thing as streams running into basins over long periods of time, or small bodies of standing water precipitating out sediments to such a paltry level they couldn't begin to approach the immensity of the strata.

Well, maybe a lot of things were just not the way they are now. What if there were fountains of the deep bringing up water every day in some area? That would mean a lot of ebb and flow in nearby areas, no? What if plants grew a lot faster? That would mean that a lot more layers could be produced, no? Etc etc.
The real question is why should we assume it was slow?

I really don't know where you are getting your notions from. Maybe you could mention a creationist or two who has inspired you? The "fountains of the deep" are mentioned in the Bible as occurring at the beginning of the Flood, an unusual event that launched the catastrophe and has no reason to ever exist again.

The Flood would have been the rising of all the oceans to cover all the land to a depth of 23 feet or so over the highest points. It would have been full of the sediments broken down and washed off the land in the forty days of the heaviest continuous rain imaginable, full of the sediments and the dead things both, from the ocean depths as well as the land, that would then have been deposited on the land as the water rose.

You say something about plants "growing?" Everything buried in the layers was killed in the Flood and then buried. Nothing was alive, no time was needed for anything to grow.

One bit of information I picked up from being at EvC is something called Walther's Law, which shows how sediments get deposited on land in a particular order as the sea rises. The usual sediments we find in the strata: sand that becomes sandstone, carbonate that becomes limestone, mud, clay and so on. Well, the Flood would have been one humongous rising of the sea over half a year, laden with sediments stirred up from the ocean floor by the fountains of the deep as well as washed off the land.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 2:17 AM starlite has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by starlite, posted 04-04-2016 1:37 PM Faith has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2087
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 27 of 206 (781336)
04-04-2016 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by starlite
04-03-2016 10:49 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
The same evidence we have for any depositing. What evidence (besides fantasy radioactive decay based dating) is there for slow deposit?? The door swings both ways
You have no idea how geology works, do you?

Lets give you a little hint or two. First, in geology not everything is deposited slowly. You read way too many creationist untruths about geology.

Second, let’s give you another hint on how geology works. From there, how geology is applied in practice. You know, what creationists love to call 'operational science'.

One of the best ways of making a name for yourself in the scientific community is to challenge a widely held scientific understanding with a strongly defended alternative theory. It is thus of considerable significance that the tens of thousands of geologists worldwide are virtually in complete agreement that the question of the earth's age has been answered: roughly 4.6 billion years.

The agreement is perhaps even more striking in the world of economic geology (oil and mineral exploration) where theories that lead to increased revenue always win, even if philosophically distasteful. Understanding the age of the earth and its layers plays a critical role in natural resource exploration, yet to our knowledge there is not a single oil or mining company anywhere in the world that uses a young-earth model to find or exploit new reserves. Old-earth models work. Young-earth models do not.


This message is a reply to:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2087
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 28 of 206 (781340)
04-04-2016 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by starlite
04-03-2016 10:49 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
The same evidence we have for any depositing. What evidence (besides fantasy radioactive decay based dating) is there for slow deposit?? The door swings both ways
Nope, it doesn't. I have personally been involved in exploration programmes for mining companies where they change their mining plans on the part of the deltas where they start and go along the part of the deltas they mine. All underground. No magic floods involved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 10:49 PM starlite has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6173
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 29 of 206 (781342)
04-04-2016 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by starlite
04-03-2016 11:20 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
As for the so called dates you obtained, they would have zero meaning if the daughter material was already here when decay started right

Wrong. The only major radiometric method that can (but often isn't) be fooled by initial daughter product is K-Ar, and it's rarely used anymore. Ar-Ar has pretty much supplanted K-Ar.

I'll be glad to explain why in a relevant thread. Or you could learn the basics from Radiometric Dating: A Christian Perspective (written by an evangelical Christian).

You would be wise not to discuss radiometric dating when you obviously know noting about it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 11:20 PM starlite has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2087
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 30 of 206 (781343)
04-04-2016 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by starlite
04-03-2016 11:20 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
starlite writes:

No it isn't. Get over it. As for the so called dates you obtained, they would have zero meaning if the daughter material was already here when decay started right?

Nope, not at all. That's not how it works at all.

Have you ever taken a mineralogy course or have you been reading creationist nonsense?

Let's give you a hint, starlite. Creationists never tell the truth about everything. Creationists always tell untruths. Untruths are all they have.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by starlite, posted 04-03-2016 11:20 PM starlite has not yet responded

  
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