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Author Topic:   After Palmyra ISIS Targets Monuments on U.S. Soil
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(3)
Message 46 of 95 (781423)
04-04-2016 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Hyroglyphx
04-04-2016 2:11 AM


Re: Reasons Matter
Hello Hyroglyphx,
quote:
The Confederacy and its flag is a monument to a way of life that included corsets and sweet tea and Southern Belle's, and Southern gentleman, and of favoring states rights above unionism... And while I personally could care less because I don't identify as a Southerner, I can see why some are a little irritated that the negative aspects of the flag, such as slavery, is usurping all of the other innocuous things symbolic to it.
As you clearly state this is your opinion.
I however do not fully agree. My take is the Rebel flag is it is a extremely polarizing symbol.
It is not imo, a monument to a way of life in the south. But was the rebel yell of the hatred of Yankees and Blacks and anyone who was not on board.
The South contained Slaves and Owners. However the Rebel flag has never been representative of the African Americans of the South, even though their story is just as much a part of southern culture as the Slave owning gentry. In fact many slaves fought under that Confederate battle flag. Either through being coerced or voluntary. However that flag was and is and will always carry with it the stain of slavery just like the swastika will always be reviled as the symbol of the holocaust and the evil that was the third Reich.
Many people who fly that flag do so out of ignorance, many others out of strictly being provocative. In other words the assholes who do not have the first clue and will have the stars and bars tatooed on their chest with things like the "Souths gonna do it Again."
So in that regard it is not racist, but.....
white supremacist do not see anything wrong with the confederate flag or the swastika, and in fact celebrate them. There is a reason for that and it is not because it is a "monument to the southern way of life' that included sweet tea and southern belles and corsets. It is because they want to identify themselves as racist and what better way to say it than with symbols from a time that disregarded the freedom and life of those victimized and oppressed.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-04-2016 2:11 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 04-04-2016 3:27 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 52 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-05-2016 1:20 AM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 95 (781463)
04-04-2016 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by 1.61803
04-04-2016 2:25 PM


Re: Reasons Matter
When I went to High School, I attended South High School in Denver, Colorado. The school symbol at the time was Johnny Reb.
Those interested may read this article about what happened since I graduated in 1977. Denver’s South High sends Johnny Reb packing, picks new mascot

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by 1.61803, posted 04-04-2016 2:25 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 48 of 95 (781498)
04-04-2016 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Dr Adequate
04-04-2016 1:16 AM


Re: Reasons Matter
Civilized people in a peaceable setting do not and should not behave like soldiers in a time of war nor understand their world through an imagined lens of victimhood and perpetual struggle - and, in fact, it is quite a hallmark of the fascist mind that they would.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-04-2016 1:16 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 04-04-2016 8:14 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 04-04-2016 10:37 PM Jon has replied
 Message 51 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-04-2016 11:11 PM Jon has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 95 (781499)
04-04-2016 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
04-04-2016 7:38 PM


Grand Old Flags
are you perhaps suggesting that in a free society people should have the right to publicly fly whatever flag they want? If so, the argument than becomes what flags are allowed on the statehouse. Personally, if for whatever reason I liked swastikas, for example...and decided to fly one on my front lawn, I would expect a reaction from at least one of the neighbors.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 04-04-2016 7:38 PM Jon has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 95 (781528)
04-04-2016 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
04-04-2016 7:38 PM


Re: Reasons Matter
nor understand their world through an imagined lens of victimhood and perpetual struggle - and, in fact, it is quite a hallmark of the fascist mind that they would.
So apparently, the victimization of the ancestors of black people as slaves is imaginary as is any racism that they currently believe they face that may have roots in such treatment. In fact, the mere holding of such mistaken impressions is actually fascism. No need for any coercion, or authoritarianism. Just holding an opinion that Jon does not is enough.
Your definition is worthless.
Perhaps you have a point about whether removal of confederate symbols are bad. It might even be possible to have a discussion about the topic. But your insistence on the term fascism is an obstacle to any meaningful discussion.
If, in fact, soldiers actually tearing down statutes is not fascism, and you've continually ducked that question, then asking to remove a statue because you find it offensive is not fascism either.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 04-04-2016 7:38 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Jon, posted 04-05-2016 7:30 PM NoNukes has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 51 of 95 (781530)
04-04-2016 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
04-04-2016 7:38 PM


Re: Reasons Matter
Civilized people in a peaceable setting do not and should not behave like soldiers in a time of war nor understand their world through an imagined lens of victimhood and perpetual struggle - and, in fact, it is quite a hallmark of the fascist mind that they would.
You could at least try to answer my questions. Here's another one: what about people who are not soldiers in time of war? Is it OK if "civilized people in a peaceable setting" take down symbols of Communism and Fascism? Or does that make them fascists? Your latest shifty blather only allows you to weasel out of one of my examples, but I gave others.
And could you please clarify this "time of war" exemption? It appears that by this loophole, the people of New Orleans are like ISIS, but ISIS is not like ISIS, since although they are vandalizing important historical monuments they are also concurrently fighting a war and so are innocent of the charge of being like themselves.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 04-04-2016 7:38 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Jon, posted 04-05-2016 7:33 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 95 (781533)
04-05-2016 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by 1.61803
04-04-2016 2:25 PM


Re: Reasons Matter
My take is the Rebel flag is it is a extremely polarizing symbol.
Agreed. Can't argue that point.
It is not imo, a monument to a way of life in the south. But was the rebel yell of the hatred of Yankees and Blacks and anyone who was not on board.
The Rebel Yell was a battle cry similar to other culture's battle cry. It was used for purposes of intimidating your enemy. Also, it's not like Northerners didn't want slavery and all Southerners did. There were quite a lot of Copperheads in the north and quite a lot of abolitionists in the South. Moreover, slavery was an ancillary issue. I hope you don't honestly believe that the Civil War was fought because the North wanted to abolish slavery and the South didn't. Because that's far too simplistic. The American Civil War was very complex in terms of causes for it.
Many people who fly that flag do so out of ignorance, many others out of strictly being provocative. In other words the assholes who do not have the first clue and will have the stars and bars tatooed on their chest with things like the "Souths gonna do it Again."
So in that regard it is not racist, but.....
I'm not saying it isn't a contentious symbol, because it is. I am simply pointing out that for its proponents there is more meaning and history behind it than what is being maligned and portrayed.
white supremacist do not see anything wrong with the confederate flag or the swastika, and in fact celebrate them. There is a reason for that and it is not because it is a "monument to the southern way of life' that included sweet tea and southern belles and corsets. It is because they want to identify themselves as racist and what better way to say it than with symbols from a time that disregarded the freedom and life of those victimized and oppressed.
White supremacists have of course usurped the flag, much to the dismay of other southerners who would like to stricken any racist connotation from the flag's symbolism.
Regardless, it really doesn't matter to me. Keep it. Burn it. Remove it from official state flags or retain it.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by 1.61803, posted 04-04-2016 2:25 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Rrhain, posted 04-05-2016 2:29 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 55 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-05-2016 10:25 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(2)
Message 53 of 95 (781535)
04-05-2016 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Hyroglyphx
04-05-2016 1:20 AM


Re: Reasons Matter
Hyroglyphx writes:
quote:
Moreover, slavery was an ancillary issue.
(*blink!*)
You did not just say that, did you?
Slavery was *the* issue of the war. Indeed, the Civil War was about a lot of things, but to pretend that slavery and white supremacy were "ancillary" shows a profound disconnect from reality.
Take a look at the documents created by the Confederacy as to why they were seceding. The primary justifications were slavery and white supremacy.
Here's the first two sentences of Georgia's declaration of secession:
The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.
Mississippi (again, the first two sentences):
In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world.
South Carolina takes its time to get to it, but there it is:
The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."
This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.
Texas doesn't take so long, but it's right there:
She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time.
Virginia puts it in the first sentence:
The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in Convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under the said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the Federal Government, having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States.
The idea that they were fighting for "state's rights" ignores the immediate question: The "state's right" to do what?
Own slaves.
And here's Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederacy, talking about why they are seceding:
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
To pretend that slavery wasn't the primary and central issue of the Civil War is disingenuous at best.
quote:
I hope you don't honestly believe that the Civil War was fought because the North wanted to abolish slavery and the South didn't.
I hope you don't honestly believe that the Civil War was fought for something other than slavery and white supremacy. Because that's far too ignorant.
quote:
White supremacists have of course usurped the flag
Incorrect. White supremacists use the flag for its precise and intended purpose.
quote:
much to the dismay of other southerners who would like to stricken any racist connotation from the flag's symbolism.
That flag has never meant anything else.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-05-2016 1:20 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 04-05-2016 3:56 AM Rrhain has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 54 of 95 (781542)
04-05-2016 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Rrhain
04-05-2016 2:29 AM


Re: Reasons Matter
H writes:
I hope you don't honestly believe that the Civil War was fought because the North wanted to abolish slavery and the South didn't.
R writes:
I hope you don't honestly believe that the Civil War was fought for something other than slavery and white supremacy. Because that's far too ignorant.
I note that these two statements are not contradictory. No, the North did not fight the war because they wanted to abolish slavery. That much is true. The North fought primarily to preserve the union.
On the other hand, the idea that the preservation of slavery, and its expansion into new territories were not the most substantial reason that the Southern States were at odds with the North is just a blatant untruth. Slavery was the single issue on which the two sides could never agree. We've had this discussion at EvC before. As Rrhain has shown, the southern states themselves declared their intentions in writing when they left the union. The southern states then went on to adopt a constitution pretty much like the US constitution, but which denied each state the right to disallow slavery.
To pretend that slavery wasn't the primary and central issue of the Civil War is disingenuous at best
I'm willing to assume ignorance rather than outright lying, but yeah. States rights? Yeah, the right to own slaves and take them into non slave states and to force the new territories to accept slaves was the proximate cause of the civil war. It was the most important issue under contention and many of the other problems stemmed directly from the prospect that slavery might die out.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Rrhain, posted 04-05-2016 2:29 AM Rrhain has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 55 of 95 (781568)
04-05-2016 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Hyroglyphx
04-05-2016 1:20 AM


Re: Reasons Matter
I hope you don't honestly believe that the Civil War was fought because the North wanted to abolish slavery and the South didn't.
The Confederates honestly believed that that's why the Civil war was fought. If they didn't know, who does?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-05-2016 1:20 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 95 (781585)
04-05-2016 7:26 PM


Fly your Flags Somewhere Else...
Oh for fuck's sake people this isn't about a flag.
It's about actual monuments made of stone and metal, some of which will be irreparably damaged if taken from where they stand.

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-05-2016 7:58 PM Jon has replied
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 04-06-2016 12:32 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 71 by Modulous, posted 04-06-2016 2:24 PM Jon has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 95 (781586)
04-05-2016 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by NoNukes
04-04-2016 10:37 PM


Re: Reasons Matter
Show me that someone living today is an actual victim of the statue of Beauregard and we'll talk.
Fuck, describe what it would even mean to be a victim of a statue.
Until then, you're just blowing bullshit smoke out all your holes.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 04-04-2016 10:37 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 04-05-2016 8:57 PM Jon has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 95 (781587)
04-05-2016 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Dr Adequate
04-04-2016 11:11 PM


Re: Reasons Matter
Is it OK if "civilized people in a peaceable setting" take down symbols of Communism and Fascism?
If they are comfortable behaving as the very people whose symbols they attempt to take down, sure.
And could you please clarify this "time of war" exemption?
It's not an exemption.
The behavior is as inexcusable no matter when or where.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-04-2016 11:11 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-05-2016 7:54 PM Jon has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 59 of 95 (781588)
04-05-2016 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Jon
04-05-2016 7:33 PM


Re: Reasons Matter
If they are comfortable behaving as the very people whose symbols they attempt to take down, sure.
Actually, the fascists and communists put up the symbols of fascism and communism. Taking them down is the exact opposite.
The behavior is as inexcusable no matter when or where.
So. To clarify. You do think that the American soldiers who took down the statue of Saddam Hussein are "fascists by definition" and "no better than the folks of ISIS"?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Jon, posted 04-05-2016 7:33 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Jon, posted 04-05-2016 9:15 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 60 of 95 (781589)
04-05-2016 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Jon
04-05-2016 7:26 PM


Re: Fly your Flags Somewhere Else...
It's about actual monuments made of stone and metal, some of which will be irreparably damaged if taken from where they stand.
Why? It was possible to put them up without irreparably damaging them. It should be possible to reverse the process. To irreparably damage a statue, you have to do something like this:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 04-05-2016 7:26 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Jon, posted 04-05-2016 9:20 PM Dr Adequate has replied

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