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Author Topic:   How does a flood ...
dwise1
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Posts: 4493
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 91 of 206 (781572)
04-05-2016 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by starlite
04-03-2016 11:32 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
Please read this explanation of isochron dating so that you can learn how dating is really done, contrasted with the simplistic strawman that the creationists have taught you.

For that matter, please spend some time at www.talkorigins.org reading about the other creationist claims you've been taught. Most of those claims had been made by 1980 and they had all been soundly refuted at that same time. Of course, your handlers will never tell you about that.

Remember: the creationists are lying to you.


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jar
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Posts: 33283
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 92 of 206 (781574)
04-05-2016 11:20 AM


Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
An important point is that change leaves evidence and world wide events are no exception.

We can show with evidence that sands from the Sahara blow all the way across the Atlantic ocean to get deposited in South America. We know that because the chemical composition of the material is identical to both locations. Much later we got views from space and could actually see the process in real time.

We know that sixty-five million years ago there was a meteor strike that spread debris all over the world. That fact was known long before the impact location was known because we found a layer all over the world that contained a signature of meteor strikes, Iridium. Only much later was the impact site located and then we had confirmation because again, the material at the impact site and the layer found around the world was the same.

We can trace other events that had world-wide impacts by the evidence left behind, in ice cores in Greenland and corresponding cores from Antarctica, from crop failures in England and Europe following a volcanic eruption in the South Pacific.

Change leaves evidence. World-wide events leave world-wide evidence.

So for either of the Biblical Flood myths to be taken seriously, there must be similar evidence.

In the case of the meteor impact sixty-five million years ago we can see dinosaur fossils below the iridium line and no dinosaur fossils above the iridium line.

What do we know about the Biblical Flood myths.

Both claim a short duration. Both claim lots of life was wiped out with only very small samples (but here the two stories are mutually exclusive, if one is right the other much be wrong) of certain types of critters saved.

If either of those were true, what MUST we see in the evidence?

First, since the event was so short lived the evidence layer should be clear and unique. Almost all life on the earth must have died out with only very small populations left and in only one location in the world. There must be the genetic equivalent of the impact site. Modern Genetics and Morphology must all point to one single location.

What we must see is an environment pretty much as it is today but then an abrupt, sudden and total depopulation world-wide of all living critters. Above the event line we should see a gradual but slow return of life; there needs to be a wedge of no-life that is widest 180 degrees away from the grounding site of the ark and gradually narrowing as it gets closer to that site.

We know what the remains and aftermath of floods look like and no one has ever been able to provide a satisfactory flood model, method, process, procedure or mechanism to explain what is seen in reality, and nowhere has the event horizon described in the paragraph above been seen.

If there is a claim that someone shot an arrow and hit the target then there MUST be a hole in the target.

So far no one supporting a belief in either of the Biblical Flood myths has presented any evidence of a hole in the target.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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JonF
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Posts: 6173
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 93 of 206 (781578)
04-05-2016 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by dwise1
04-05-2016 10:35 AM


Re: different causes for different layers?
Actually, isochron dating isn't used much in geochronology anymore, because of so many open systems that don't produce a date and largish uncertainties becasue of uncertainty in the half-lives. It's still very important in geochemistry. The action is in U-Pb and Ar-Ar.

From 2005, via Dr. Ludwig of the Berkeley Geochronological Laboratory, a survey of the literature in that year or so:

Shame he didn't distinguish between Ar-Ar and K-Ar.


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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 94 of 206 (781582)
04-05-2016 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by JonF
04-05-2016 12:16 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
I'm surprised that fission track is so popular.

From 2005, via Dr. Ludwig of the Berkeley Geochronological Laboratory, a survey of the literature in that year or so:

Is there a paper? Thanks.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 95 of 206 (781584)
04-05-2016 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
04-05-2016 11:20 AM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
There was ONE Biblical worldwide Flood and there is plenty of evidence for it in the strata themselves that span whole continents that are laden with dead things in such a way as to show they were buried catastrophically. Fantastically good evidence.

Walther's Law gives us the method for the laying down of the strata in disparate sediments: sand that became sandstone, carbonates that became limestone, clay that became shale, mud to mudstone and so on, which are laid down one after another and one on top of the other as sea level rises, which is of course what would have happened in the flood. Walther's Law gives us the explanation for how sediments got sorted separately. Millions of years per sediment is a ridiculous notion.

And of course the fact that there are dead things galore buried in those sediments fits very nicely the Flood's purpose of wiping out all living things. Since sediments sort, apparently contents do too.

And all that evidence is still there. It hasn't gone away.

As I recall I've many times laid out a complete scenario for the Flood and even Percy once said it suffices as a model, though I'm unable to find where he said it, so your constant refrain that I haven't is false.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 96 of 206 (781590)
04-05-2016 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
04-05-2016 6:49 PM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
There was ONE Biblical worldwide Flood and there is plenty of evidence for it in the strata themselves that span whole continents that are laden with dead things in such a way as to show they were buried catastrophically.

No.

Walther's Law gives us the method for the laying down of the strata in disparate sediments: sand that became sandstone, carbonates that became limestone, clay that became shale, mud to mudstone and so on, which are laid down one after another and one on top of the other as sea level rises, which is of course what would have happened in the flood.

How many times would this have happened in the flood?


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JonF
Member
Posts: 6173
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 97 of 206 (781591)
04-05-2016 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Dr Adequate
04-05-2016 5:35 PM


Re: different causes for different layers?
Nope. Personal communication, an email that I don't have permission to share. It's also pretty difficult for me to get at in my email client from back then. Doesn't like Windows 10 but also has problems in an XP VM.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 98 of 206 (781592)
04-05-2016 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Dr Adequate
04-05-2016 8:03 PM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
No.

Yes. Yeah they're a jumbled tumbled mess Dr A. The dinosaurs are particularly a jumbled mess, as you can see for instance at that monument where a wall of fossils is exposed through a glass wall. They obviously didn't die normal deaths. And Steve Austin's study of the nautiloids in the redwall limestone in the Grand Canyon area certainly proves they were washed there to be buried and didn't die normal deaths.

How many times would this have happened in the flood?

The Flood rose steadily, continuing to deposit its sediments with their corpses. How many times? Once, a steady rising over about five months. One rising up, one retreat down.

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Percy
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Posts: 20006
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 99 of 206 (781593)
04-05-2016 8:33 PM


One Post as Percy
I'm still moderating this thread, but I'm making this one post as Percy because Faith mentioned me in her Message 95:

Faith in Message 95 writes:

As I recall I've many times laid out a complete scenario for the Flood and even Percy once said it suffices as a model, though I'm unable to find where he said it, so your constant refrain that I haven't is false.

There's no question that many of Faith's ideas can be tested, i.e., a model, but in my view they've already failed any tests, and many of them violate one or more laws of nature.

Faith also mentioned Walther's Law, and since I participated in discussions with Faith on this topic I will add that I don't think she understands it yet.

Please, no replies to this message. I'm moderating, not participating.

--Percy


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 100 of 206 (781594)
04-05-2016 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Percy
04-05-2016 8:33 PM


Re: One Post as Percy
I thought you said you were replying as Percy this one time, NOT moderating. I'd like to comment on your post.

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12715
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 101 of 206 (781595)
04-05-2016 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
04-05-2016 8:27 PM


Back to the Topic
Faith writes:

The Flood rose steadily, continuing to deposit its sediments with their corpses. How many times? Once, a steady rising over about five months. One rising up, one retreat down.

This is directly related to the question Jar raised in Message 1:

Jar in Message 1 writes:

The first question is "How did the flood sort things so that there is a layer where there are no chordates while layers above do have chordates?"

Please, no replies to this message.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 102 of 206 (781596)
04-05-2016 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Percy
04-05-2016 8:33 PM


Re: One Post as Percy
OK I'll take your acknowledgment as permission to reply.

All I was interested in was jar's constant refrain that I've never supplied a model. Since you agree that I have done so I'd really appreciate it if you'd leave it at that so jar can digest the fact once and for all, and leave out your opinion as to its testability. I have opinions on your points too that wouldn't make you particularly happy. Thanks for your corroboration of the main point.

I certainly understand Walther's Law sufficiently to understand that it is THE way sediments get so clearly sorted into their own type on the scale of the Flood and by the mechanism of the Flood, the rising of the sea water. There is no other reasonable explanation for how the sediments were laid down than this Walther's Law and I am very grateful for those who posted that information.


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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 103 of 206 (781597)
04-05-2016 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
04-05-2016 8:27 PM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
Yes. Yeah they're a jumbled tumbled mess Dr A. The dinosaurs are particularly a jumbled mess, as you can see for instance at that monument where a wall of fossils is exposed through a glass wall. They obviously didn't die normal deaths. And Steve Austin's study of the nautiloids in the redwall limestone in the Grand Canyon area certainly proves they were washed there to be buried and didn't die normal deaths.

The nautiloids drowned in the flood?

How are you identifying how these things died?

As for how they were buried, while some organisms were indeed buried in dune slumps or mudslides, many things evidently were not, as one can tell by observing the effects of scavengers or erosion on their remains.

The Flood rose steadily, continuing to deposit its sediments with their corpses. How many times? Once, a steady rising over about five months. One rising up, one retreat down.

Then why are there multiple transgressive and regressive sequences in the geological record?


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 104 of 206 (781598)
04-05-2016 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Dr Adequate
04-05-2016 8:45 PM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
The nautiloids were suffocated by the sediments in the water.

Austin showed that the nautiloids are represented by individuals of all ages all mixed together, which wouldn't happen with normal deaths.

You need to provide the evidence of your scavenger assertion and your multiple transgressions-regressions assertion.

ABE: My guess is that the rising and falling of the tides would account for the latter IF the evidence is good, though it is probably just the usual reading-into-the-facts anyway, and very likely the creatures buried with evidence of scavenger damage were already in that condition when the Flood overtook them.

Just a war of interpretations you see.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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edge
Member (Idle past 545 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 105 of 206 (781599)
04-05-2016 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
04-05-2016 6:49 PM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
There was ONE Biblical worldwide Flood and there is plenty of evidence for it in the strata themselves that span whole continents that are laden with dead things in such a way as to show they were buried catastrophically. Fantastically good evidence.

Actually not, particularly since we don't see any evidence for more recent lifeforms in older rocks. If there were one huge flood, the fossils would be all mixed up, lions next to trilobites. We don't see that. But that's just one line of evidence. There are many more which you have shown a preference to deny.

Walther's Law gives us the method for the laying down of the strata in disparate sediments: sand that became sandstone, carbonates that became limestone, clay that became shale, mud to mudstone and so on, which are laid down one after another and one on top of the other as sea level rises, which is of course what would have happened in the flood.

Problem is that we see it repeated over and over in the geological record, always recording a new set of fossil evidence. And we never see evidence that the entire planet was inundated.

Walther's Law gives us the explanation for how sediments got sorted separately. Millions of years per sediment is a ridiculous notion.

Why is that?

And of course the fact that there are dead things galore buried in those sediments fits very nicely the Flood's purpose of wiping out all living things. Since sediments sort, apparently contents do too.

So, if this happened all at once why do we not see mammals buried with trilobites?

And all that evidence is still there. It hasn't gone away.

Except for the evidence that you choose to ignore...

As I recall I've many times laid out a complete scenario for the Flood and even Percy once said it suffices as a model, though I'm unable to find where he said it, so your constant refrain that I haven't is false.

Yes, a model that has been shown to be fallacious.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix 1 quote box.


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