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Author Topic:   How does a flood ...
jar
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Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
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(2)
Message 92 of 206 (781574)
04-05-2016 11:20 AM


Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
An important point is that change leaves evidence and world wide events are no exception.

We can show with evidence that sands from the Sahara blow all the way across the Atlantic ocean to get deposited in South America. We know that because the chemical composition of the material is identical to both locations. Much later we got views from space and could actually see the process in real time.

We know that sixty-five million years ago there was a meteor strike that spread debris all over the world. That fact was known long before the impact location was known because we found a layer all over the world that contained a signature of meteor strikes, Iridium. Only much later was the impact site located and then we had confirmation because again, the material at the impact site and the layer found around the world was the same.

We can trace other events that had world-wide impacts by the evidence left behind, in ice cores in Greenland and corresponding cores from Antarctica, from crop failures in England and Europe following a volcanic eruption in the South Pacific.

Change leaves evidence. World-wide events leave world-wide evidence.

So for either of the Biblical Flood myths to be taken seriously, there must be similar evidence.

In the case of the meteor impact sixty-five million years ago we can see dinosaur fossils below the iridium line and no dinosaur fossils above the iridium line.

What do we know about the Biblical Flood myths.

Both claim a short duration. Both claim lots of life was wiped out with only very small samples (but here the two stories are mutually exclusive, if one is right the other much be wrong) of certain types of critters saved.

If either of those were true, what MUST we see in the evidence?

First, since the event was so short lived the evidence layer should be clear and unique. Almost all life on the earth must have died out with only very small populations left and in only one location in the world. There must be the genetic equivalent of the impact site. Modern Genetics and Morphology must all point to one single location.

What we must see is an environment pretty much as it is today but then an abrupt, sudden and total depopulation world-wide of all living critters. Above the event line we should see a gradual but slow return of life; there needs to be a wedge of no-life that is widest 180 degrees away from the grounding site of the ark and gradually narrowing as it gets closer to that site.

We know what the remains and aftermath of floods look like and no one has ever been able to provide a satisfactory flood model, method, process, procedure or mechanism to explain what is seen in reality, and nowhere has the event horizon described in the paragraph above been seen.

If there is a claim that someone shot an arrow and hit the target then there MUST be a hole in the target.

So far no one supporting a belief in either of the Biblical Flood myths has presented any evidence of a hole in the target.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 04-05-2016 6:49 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 107 of 206 (781602)
04-05-2016 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Faith
04-05-2016 9:06 PM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
Faith writes:

But your whole notion of "older rocks" is just the OE theory. If the rocks aren't older then which lifeforms are found in them has nothing to do with the age of the rocks.

But the rocks are older Faith despite your denial of reality.

But that is also irrelevant to this topic and you have already posted in this very thread that you cannot provide a satisfactory model, method, process, procedure or mechanism.

You have already fallen back on magic.

In Message 10 you posted, and I quote:

Faith writes:

I don't know, it just did.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Faith, posted 04-05-2016 9:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 04-05-2016 9:16 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 109 of 206 (781607)
04-05-2016 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Faith
04-05-2016 9:16 PM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
Percy agreed that you may have provided models but they have all be soundly refuted and nonsense.

BUT Faith, this topic is about flood a model, method, process, procedure or mechanism that can explain what is seen. Of course it is unreasonable to expect a floodist to ever support anything but that is what this thread is about.

And yes, the model, method, process, procedure or mechanism MUST, I repeat MUST account for all of the evidence seen.

That is why the concept of a Biblical flood was tossed away hundreds of years ago by all but the Christian Cult of Ignorance.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 04-05-2016 9:16 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 6:17 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 111 of 206 (781611)
04-05-2016 10:15 PM


world-wide events and local events
As pointed out above, world-wide events will leave world-wide evidence and must explain all of the things seen that were supposedly the result of that event.

Local events on the other hand need only explain local conditions.

The fact that the things that MUST be seen if there had been a world-wide flood during the existence of humans are not found, have never been found, does not mean that there could not have been local events.

There are many, many sites where there is evidence of local flooding, often repeated flooding.

As pointed out back in Message 92:

quote:
What do we know about the Biblical Flood myths.

Both claim a short duration. Both claim lots of life was wiped out with only very small samples (but here the two stories are mutually exclusive, if one is right the other much be wrong) of certain types of critters saved.

If either of those were true, what MUST we see in the evidence?

First, since the event was so short lived the evidence layer should be clear and unique. Almost all life on the earth must have died out with only very small populations left and in only one location in the world. There must be the genetic equivalent of the impact site. Modern Genetics and Morphology must all point to one single location.

What we must see is an environment pretty much as it is today but then an abrupt, sudden and total depopulation world-wide of all living critters. Above the event line we should see a gradual but slow return of life; there needs to be a wedge of no-life that is widest 180 degrees away from the grounding site of the ark and gradually narrowing as it gets closer to that site.

We know what the remains and aftermath of floods look like and no one has ever been able to provide a satisfactory flood model, method, process, procedure or mechanism to explain what is seen in reality, and nowhere has the event horizon described in the paragraph above been seen.


Pointing to examples where there was evidence of a flood simply does not provide evidence that there was a world-wide flood.

Even thousands of examples of floods does not provide evidence there was a world-wide flood.

Even thousands of examples of floods found all over the world does not provide evidence there was a world-wide flood.

I repeat for emphasis:

What we must see is an environment pretty much as it is today but then an abrupt, sudden and total depopulation world-wide of all living critters. Above the event line we should see a gradual but slow return of life; there needs to be a wedge of no-life that is widest 180 degrees away from the grounding site of the ark and gradually narrowing as it gets closer to that site.

We know what the remains and aftermath of floods look like and no one has ever been able to provide a satisfactory world-wide flood model, method, process, procedure or mechanism to explain what is seen in reality, and nowhere has the event horizon described in the paragraph above been seen..

Edited by jar, : fix link to prior post


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 140 of 206 (781645)
04-06-2016 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Faith
04-06-2016 6:17 AM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
Faith writes:

jar writes:

And yes, the model, method, process, procedure or mechanism MUST, I repeat MUST account for all of the evidence seen.

Which is a ridiculously draconian requirement of an amateur creationist in a message board discussion, or any creationist at all for that matter, considering that the model hasn't yet been fully developed. The only point of such a requirement is to shut up the creationists.

Nonsense Faith, stop making false assertions. It is the very same requirement made of everyone.

And to claim the object is to shut up creationists may well be the stupidest argument you have made yet. How can asking someone to speak be considered trying to shut them up?

You have never explained how any model, method, process, procedure or mechanism can account for what MUST be seen.

As I pointed out to you back in Message 111 there are local and world-wide events. What Steve Austin describes is a local event.

Pointing to examples where there was evidence of a flood simply does not provide evidence that there was a world-wide flood.

Even thousands of examples of floods does not provide evidence there was a world-wide flood.

Even thousands of examples of floods found all over the world does not provide evidence there was a world-wide flood.

I repeat for emphasis:

What we must see is an environment pretty much as it is today but then an abrupt, sudden and total depopulation world-wide of all living critters. Above the event line we should see a gradual but slow return of life; there needs to be a wedge of no-life that is widest 180 degrees away from the grounding site of the ark and gradually narrowing as it gets closer to that site.

We know what the remains and aftermath of floods look like and no one has ever been able to provide a satisfactory world-wide flood model, method, process, procedure or mechanism to explain what is seen in reality, and nowhere has the event horizon described in the paragraph above been seen..


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 6:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 8:53 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 145 of 206 (781654)
04-06-2016 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
04-06-2016 8:53 AM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
Faith writes:

You have a false idea of the Flood.

Nonsense, I can read exactly what the two flood stories tell us it was like.

And Steve Austin's nautilus bed is a great piece of evidence that it could NOT have been produced by some World-Wide flood.

Here is exactly what the two floods described in the Bible were like and what we MUST see.

quote:
In the version of the myth found in Genesis 6 God instructs Noah to:

quote:
19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."

In the version of the myth found in Genesis 7 we see similar (close but not the same) instructions:

quote:
2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.

We also find similar explanations of what will be destroyed in Genesis 6 it says:

quote:
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

and in Genesis 7:

quote:
4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."


So both tales talk about killing off a bunch of critters, in the Genesis 6 story it appeared fish and swimming things get spared but the Genesis 7 story is clear that all living things get killed.

If either of those stories were true and one of the Biblical floods actually caused Stevie's die off, then what he MUST find is not a bed of nautili but rather a bed of tree trunks and deer and short nose bears and humans and coyotes and wolves and armadillos and modern snails and clams and pottery and tent poles and dogs and camels and horses and mammoths and mastodons and grass pollen and saber tooth tigers and all the other things that lived on land at least.

Lots of local events do not add evidence of a world-wide event.

But wait, there's more.

We would also need to see geological evidence that the material above that layer was completely devoid of any signs of living critters and that sterile layer continue right around the world, everywhere we look, getting slimmer as it gets closer to the Biblical impact site which would be where the ark landed.

But that is simply not seen.

You can claim you shot an arrow and hit the target Faith, but there is still no hole.

I repeat for emphasis:

What we must see is an environment pretty much as it is today but then an abrupt, sudden and total depopulation world-wide of all living critters. Above the event line we should see a gradual but slow return of life; there needs to be a wedge of no-life that is widest 180 degrees away from the grounding site of the ark and gradually narrowing as it gets closer to that site.

We know what the remains and aftermath of floods look like and no one has ever been able to provide a satisfactory world-wide flood model, method, process, procedure or mechanism to explain what is seen in reality, and nowhere has the event horizon described in the paragraph above been seen.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 8:53 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 9:32 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 148 of 206 (781658)
04-06-2016 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
04-06-2016 9:32 AM


what must be seen
Faith writes:

My evidence is for the one Biblical Flood. I do not recognize two, nor indeed just about anything you have to say about floods. That makes discussion with you about my model impossible.

What you recognize has nothing to do with what the Bible story actually says.

What I presented in Message 145 is what the Bible actually says and why the Bible shows that what Austin described was a local event and not related in anyway to either of the Biblical flood stories.

You have already said your flood model cannot explain either the question asked the the OP or what Austin described and so far have not offered any model, method, process, procedure or mechanism to explain why what MUST be seen is not seen.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 9:32 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 150 by Admin, posted 04-06-2016 10:17 AM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 152 of 206 (781663)
04-06-2016 10:38 AM


next question
How does any Biblical flood story explain the fact the there are layers where only sea life is found while higher layers show both land and sea life?

How does a world-wide flood sort out just sea life in one layer but show sea and land based life in a higher layer?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 153 of 206 (781665)
04-06-2016 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Admin
04-06-2016 10:37 AM


Re: Moderator Clarification
You are correct in both cases. I have specifically and repeatedly pointed out that there are two mutually exclusive Bible tales about a world-wide flood that have been mushed together and interestingly, not redacted to resolve the contradictions.

Why relatively intelligent editors kept both tales is as interesting as why they placed the younger more recent creation myth before the older one, but those are for other threads.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 151 by Admin, posted 04-06-2016 10:37 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 158 of 206 (781673)
04-06-2016 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Dr Adequate
04-06-2016 11:51 AM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
DrA writes:

But the sediments in the geological record are not all of a single kind for a single time either.

Nor do I suggest that the layers above the flood or even the flood layer itself should be a single kind, BUT if either of the Biblical flood stories were true then there must be a sterile level above the flood level that is devoid of any life forms with another layer above that sterile layer where we see life returning. In addition the depths of the sterile layer should be lower close to the place from whence new life originates, in the case of the Biblical flood myths that would be landing site of the ark.

In fact there must be an even more detailed series of layers since plants would spread fastest then flying critters with the larger mammals coming last and that too should be reflected in the layers above the flood layer.

Change leaves evidence and world-wide change must leave world-wide evidence.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2016 11:51 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 170 of 206 (781704)
04-06-2016 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Faith
04-06-2016 4:38 PM


baby steps.
Let's try small baby steps.

First, do you think a flood like one of the flood tales in the Bible happened?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 4:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 173 of 206 (781708)
04-06-2016 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Admin
04-06-2016 5:53 PM


Re: Moderator Clarifications
Admin writes:

Faith has spelled out many details of how she thinks the flood happened - there's no need for going over old and very familiar ground. Jar, this is your thread. Faith has already stated she has no answer for your first question. If you have no "next question" then this thread should enter summation mode.

I did ask follow up questions and to try to step through those in a slow, gradual progression to try to avoid many of the issues you outline above.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 172 by Admin, posted 04-06-2016 5:53 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 180 of 206 (781724)
04-06-2016 8:59 PM


To try to help Faith.
Let's give this another try. In this I will begin by postulating Faith's Young Earth time line.

Begin with small baby steps.

Faith, do you think a flood like one of the flood tales in the Bible happened?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 9:03 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 182 of 206 (781727)
04-06-2016 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Faith
04-06-2016 9:03 PM


To try to restart thread
I have read it and replied to it and also pointed out that I had asked additional questions.

Now if you wish to simply admit that your flood model cannot explain any of the issues any of us might present then YOUR participation can certainly once again end as usual.

But the questions will remain and hopefully someone will come along who is willing to learn. With that possibility in mind I will once again post the following.

Let's give this another try. In this I will begin by postulating Faith's Young Earth time line.

Begin with small baby steps.

Faith (or some other person who still believes one of the Biblical flood myths actually happened), do you think a flood like one of the flood tales in the Bible happened?

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 9:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Admin, posted 04-07-2016 8:47 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 186 of 206 (781737)
04-07-2016 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Admin
04-07-2016 8:37 AM


Re: To try to help Faith.
Admin addressed to Faith writes:

Jar in Message 180 writes:

Faith, do you think a flood like one of the flood tales in the Bible happened?

I told Jar earlier that this question would just go over very familiar ground - you've outlined your views many times. I will tell him again.

Unless you already know all the followup steps I'm not sure how you can be convinced that it will go over very familiar ground.

I hope that you will let me try to work through this since simply providing all of the information in on large package (regardless of who provides the information) has always resulted in Faith simply dismissing everything.

Perhaps by allowing and investigating areas where there might be agreement some progress might be made, if not with Faith then perhaps with someone else who is reading but not participating actively.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Admin, posted 04-07-2016 8:37 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
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