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Author Topic:   Yes, The Real The New Awesome Primary Thread
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 196 of 478 (781685)
04-06-2016 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Blue Jay
04-03-2016 12:14 PM


Re: One vote backwards to go two votes forwards
I can sort of agree with this sentiment: none of the candidates is really likely to accomplish the objectives they're setting out in their campaigns, because all their ideas involve legislation, which isn't the President's job.
Ssssh, we don't want the electorate to know that they should spend all this time, focus and turnout on the *other* elections. But yeah, obviously a single position is easier to get 'excited' about. Would be nice if the questions and speeches were about Executive Orders intended, to which departments, what laws will they direct the police to focus on more or less than presently, how will they use the veto? etc
I guess this is another reason I prefer a parliamentary system. Our General Election is for the legisexecutive. Unfortunately, it means few people close attention to their particular local candidates in almost all cases, mostly just voting for the Prime Minister or Party.
This is the kind of sociopolitical volatility that concerns me the most.
True enough, the wackos mindset is to follow whatever Republican gets the nomination regardless - but Trump's ability to exploit them is very concerning.
Frankly, I think the Sanders campaign is fueled entirely by unbounded optimism.
Sure, like Obama. Only I guess 'he's ethnically Jewish' isn't going to be a reason to vote *for* him any significant number of people have in their subconscious at the voting booth. Also, the unbounded optimism has burst a little after Obama. Difficult to keep it up for eight years.
Do we really think this kind of thing works? I have an autistic child. He doesn't learn from his mistakes very well, and has a difficult time getting out of his routines, even when he knows (intellectually) that his routine is causing him problems. So, the "Bruce Almighty" approach (give them the power so they can learn what happens when they use it wrong) never seemed like a good idea to me.
It worked in the Cosby Show, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Blue Jay, posted 04-03-2016 12:14 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 197 of 478 (781687)
04-06-2016 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Asgara
04-06-2016 11:26 AM


Re: Cheese Heads Speak
We just have to admit we live in a republican state. The deep south of the north.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

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Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 198 of 478 (781939)
04-11-2016 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Phat
04-02-2016 11:17 AM


Re: On Wisconsin
Phat writes:
This election gives me an uneasy feeling like no other.
The Art of the Steal - Colorado election was cancelled- all the delegates went to Goldman Sachs funded Cruz (the Canadian). Wow there really is no democracy!
Edited by Big_Al35, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by AZPaul3, posted 04-12-2016 8:08 PM Big_Al35 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 199 of 478 (781941)
04-11-2016 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Blue Jay
04-03-2016 12:14 PM


The Face Of A Nation
Mod writes:
I’m looking forward to a Trump presidency. When he is President, maybe people will realize the President doesn’t actually have all that much power.
Maybe not that much legislative power--but in this age of sound bites, instagrams, and image, the leader of a country represents the image of that country. Think Abdinajab or Khomeni in Iran. Most Americans who watched the news thought of Iran as they thought of the leaders. Look at North Korea! Does anyone care how "nice" individual citizens are or do we watch only what the leader says.
Blue Jay writes:
I can sort of agree with this sentiment: none of the candidates is really likely to accomplish the objectives they're setting out in their campaigns, because all their ideas involve legislation, which isn't the President's job.
But, the "power" that Trump wields is the ability to rally the wackos.
And God knows we have an abundance of wackos. If Trump gets elected, we will see far more terrorism, I believe. People wont mind hating us so much.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(2)
Message 200 of 478 (781949)
04-12-2016 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Modulous
04-06-2016 3:24 PM


Re: One vote backwards to go two votes forwards
Hi, Mod.
Modulous writes:
Ssssh, we don't want the electorate to know that they should spend all this time, focus and turnout on the *other* elections.
I kind of wish they'd divert some of their massive monetary contributions to research. Jeb Bush's pathetic campaign raised as much money as the global community of entomologists receives in a decade's worth of research grants. Our research on pest management and genetically modified crops is so much more meaningful than television ads that say "Marco Rubio is a flip-flopper."
It makes me want to cry.
Modulous writes:
But yeah, obviously a single position is easier to get 'excited' about. Would be nice if the questions and speeches were about Executive Orders intended, to which departments, what laws will they direct the police to focus on more or less than presently, how will they use the veto?
Well, you'd need to define "nice" a bit more clearly. I do wish people would be more rational/logical with their decision-making processes, but it seems that society has always been hell-bent on stupidity, and democracy, for all its virtues, seems to only exacerbate that.
I imagine that evolutionary psychology can provide a good explanation for all this, but perhaps that's a subject for a different thread?
Modulous writes:
I guess this is another reason I prefer a parliamentary system. Our General Election is for the legisexecutive. Unfortunately, it means few people close attention to their particular local candidates in almost all cases, mostly just voting for the Prime Minister or Party.
My first real exposure to Parliamentary politics came last night, when MP Skinner (?) was taken to task by the speaker (?) for calling the Prime Minister "Dodgy Dave." That sort of language is terribly unbecoming of a member of parliament.
You guys are hilarious!

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Modulous, posted 04-06-2016 3:24 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 202 by Big_Al35, posted 04-12-2016 1:22 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 201 of 478 (781950)
04-12-2016 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Blue Jay
04-12-2016 11:18 AM


Re: One vote backwards to go two votes forwards
Blue jay writes:
My first real exposure to Parliamentary politics came last night, when MP Skinner (?) was taken to task by the speaker (?) for calling the Prime Minister "Dodgy Dave." That sort of language is terribly unbecoming of a member of parliament.
Pierre Trudeau (the Elder) got kicked out of Parliament once in the 60s for wearing a turtleneck instead of a tie.

This message is a reply to:
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Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 202 of 478 (781952)
04-12-2016 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Blue Jay
04-12-2016 11:18 AM


Re: One vote backwards to go two votes forwards
Blue Jay writes:
I do wish people would be more rational/logical with their decision-making processes, but it seems that society has always been hell-bent on stupidity, and democracy, for all its virtues, seems to only exacerbate that.
Please tell me what decision I should make and which way I should vote. After all I wouldn't want to upset you. Anyway, I'm hell-bent on stupidity and I was never really worthy of democracy. It would only encourage me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Blue Jay, posted 04-12-2016 11:18 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Blue Jay, posted 04-12-2016 3:27 PM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(4)
Message 203 of 478 (781956)
04-12-2016 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Big_Al35
04-12-2016 1:22 PM


Re: One vote backwards to go two votes forwards
Hi, Big Al.
Big_Al35 writes:
Please tell me what decision I should make and which way I should vote. After all I wouldn't want to upset you.
I said I want rationality and logic, not conformity.
My comment was specifically a reiteration of the age-old scientist's lament about the world prioritizing sensationalized but mostly frivolous things, such as political campaigns, over more obscure but potentially more valuable things, such as research.
-----
If you want my two cents, I believe basic rationality suggests we should be striving for a balanced budget, like the Republicans say. I don't think we can rationally defend the proliferation of federal programs that the Democrats want when we literally don't have the money to pay for them. It seems to me that these federal programs are more likely to become a burden on our society than an empowerment, especially given the electorate's opinions toward them, so I'm uncomfortable voting for them. I think we may need to see a generational shift before these ideas will work in America.
On the other hand, it's not like Republicans are really thrifty: they want more military spending and money for a wall to cut off immigrants. These policies are highly likely to alienate us further from an international community that's already resentful towards us, and I'm not convinced that they're going to do much to protect us. I mean, Islamic terrorists are certainly evil and dangerous; but if it weren't for the psychological effects of terrorism amplified by the media, they really wouldn't be a serious threat to our national security at all. So, the Republican response to terrorism seems decidedly irrational to me, and Obama's response seems perfectly appropriate.
Also, the phrase "fuck you" seems surprisingly rational as a response to anybody who thinks we need laws telling people how they should conduct their personal lives. I understand the discomfort that things like homosexuality and other "alternative lifestyles" can cause people, because they are, frankly, a bit "weird." Diversity (whether ethnic, religious, behavioral or other) can make things more complicated and messy, for sure: but diversity is reality, and trying to adapt to reality seems like a more rational enterprise than trying to adapt reality to ourselves.
On the other hand, I have an inherent distaste for social crusades and protests. I am a conformist at heart, and have completely failed to make peace with the concept of organizations or institutions of any kind implementing punishments for social behaviors they disagree with. I feel like, as soon as these movements gain any traction, they turn into over-reactive witch hunts that pounce viciously on anything that even resembles disagreement with their cause.
In short, I want moderation. In the past, the best way to achieve that in American politics has been to split my down-ballot votes between the two parties. But, the "balance of power" approach has recently only created gridlock and stagnation. So, I'm not so sure my split-ballot strategy is a good idea this time.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Big_Al35, posted 04-12-2016 1:22 PM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(5)
Message 204 of 478 (781965)
04-12-2016 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Big_Al35
04-11-2016 7:32 AM


Re: On Wisconsin
The Art of the Steal - Colorado election was cancelled- all the delegates went to Goldman Sachs funded Cruz (the Canadian). Wow there really is no democracy!
What are you talking about?
Colorado Republicans have always gone to their national convention uncommitted to any candidate. They have also (almost) always had a non-binding presidential preference poll.
Last year the Republican National folks made a rule change that if there is a presidential preference poll a state's delegates are bound to the winner(s). So to keep their delegates uncommitted going into the convention the Colorado GOP cancelled the preference poll.
And they did this way back last August well before any front runners were established.
Goldman Sachs did not / could not flood Colorado with money to buy delegates for Cruz since there are no committed delegates for them to buy.
And as far as democracy goes the political parties are not part of the government. They are independent private associations free to make their own rules in their own ways however they see fit. They are not bound by any vote of the self-registered public-at-large unless they so want and they are free to change their rules whenever they want.
Political parties were formed to put forward candidates that fit the parties philosophy. They are not democracies nor organs of our democracy. That expression comes in November when "We The People" select what persons, what parties, what philosophies we want to represent us in government. That is our democracy and it is alive and well, thank you very much.
So, again, what the hell are you talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Big_Al35, posted 04-11-2016 7:32 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by NoNukes, posted 04-12-2016 9:27 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 208 by Big_Al35, posted 04-13-2016 5:58 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 478 (781969)
04-12-2016 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by AZPaul3
04-12-2016 8:08 PM


Re: On Wisconsin
Goldman Sachs did not / could not flood Colorado with money to buy delegates for Cruz since there are no committed delegates for them to buy
To be fair, Big Al did not say that Sachs bought the delegates, he said that Cruz himself was Sachs funded.
And perhaps even more controversially, I do think the delegate selection process in Colorado was a bit funky. Obviously it was not designed to favor Cruz, but it does appear that Trump had no chance of gaining any delegates in Colorado regardless of how much campaigning he did. The outcome was pretty much determined by the GOP machine.
This is one of the few times I find myself siding with BA in principle. It probably helps that I despise Cruz even more than Trump.
ABE:
Political parties were formed to put forward candidates that fit the parties philosophy. They are not democracies nor organs of our democracy.
Yeah, that's right. I sometimes do fail to keep that in mind.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by AZPaul3, posted 04-12-2016 8:08 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 206 of 478 (781975)
04-12-2016 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by NoNukes
04-12-2016 9:27 PM


The Bogeyman Rises
To be fair, Big Al did not say that Sachs bought the delegates, he said that Cruz himself was Sachs funded.
I know. I was having fun with it.
Yes, Cruz has received Goldman Sachs contributions to the tune of $50,000.
But his major contributors are Toby Neugebauer of Quantum Energy Partners ($10 m), Robert Mercer of Renaissance Technologies ($11 m) and Farris and Dan Wilks, a pair of up and coming Koch brothers wannabes ($15 m). source
So why did Big Al cite the puny contribution of Sachs? Scare tactics. Pure and simple smear with the big bad bogeyman. Hell, his bigger contributors are scarier than Sachs but nobody's heard of them before. Goldman Sachs has contributed to everybody so the pointed edge here is kinda dull.
Lest people think that the Colorado situation is some kind of deep dark conspiracy to defraud the people of their due right to vote (which in a political party you do not have) or that the Colorado GOP is pulling a fast one over everyone's eyes in pushing for uncommitted delegates (which a party has every right to do) let's remember that this is politics as usual and rather tame at that.
None of it in any way calls American democracy into question.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(4)
Message 207 of 478 (781982)
04-13-2016 12:02 AM


Ryan Says No!
Republican movers and shakers are in a hell of a fit. Arguably one of their best compromise candidates to rally a brokered convention has adamantly refused to be drafted.
Paul Ryan, Speaker of the House:
quote:
"Let me be clear, Mr. Ryan said, addressing reporters at the Republican National Committee’s headquarters. I do not want, nor will I accept, the nomination of our party."
"If no candidate has the majority on the first ballot, I believe you should only turn to a person who has participated in the primary. Count me out."
source
Trump is threatening riots if he does not get the nod. And, now some big Republican names are saying they may not attend the convention at all. source
Cleveland, oh Cleveland, what potential you hold. The fights, the fists, the blood could be gold.
I never thought national politics could be this much fun!

Replies to this message:
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Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 208 of 478 (781984)
04-13-2016 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by AZPaul3
04-12-2016 8:08 PM


Re: On Wisconsin
AZPaul3 writes:
That expression comes in November when "We The People" select what persons, what parties, what philosophies we want to represent us in government
Ahhh so in November people can still vote for Trump even if he is not selected by the Republican Party? What - NO? I didn't think so. Wait a minute can he stand as an independent?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by AZPaul3, posted 04-12-2016 8:08 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by AZPaul3, posted 04-13-2016 7:42 AM Big_Al35 has replied
 Message 210 by jar, posted 04-13-2016 8:21 AM Big_Al35 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 209 of 478 (781985)
04-13-2016 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Big_Al35
04-13-2016 5:58 AM


Re: On Wisconsin
Yes, Al, you an still vote for The Donald even if he does not receive the Republican nomination. You are free to vote for whomever you so desire come November.
In this instance, a third party run by The Donald is a highly likely scenario if he fails to bluster and intimidate his way into the Republican nomination.
Stay tuned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Big_Al35, posted 04-13-2016 5:58 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Big_Al35, posted 04-13-2016 8:23 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 210 of 478 (781987)
04-13-2016 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Big_Al35
04-13-2016 5:58 AM


Re: On Wisconsin
Ah, Al. Have you ever voted?
Did you know that in most states in the US you can write in a candidate even if not listed on the ballot?
Did you know that so far there are about 70 declared write-in candidates running for US President in 2016?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Big_Al35, posted 04-13-2016 5:58 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Big_Al35, posted 04-13-2016 8:26 AM jar has replied

  
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