Summations Only

sacrament
a religious ceremony or act of the Christian Church that is regarded as an outward and visible sign of inward and spiritual divine grace, in particular.
(in the Roman Catholic and many Orthodox Churches) the rites of baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, ordination, and matrimony.
(among Protestants) baptism and the Eucharist. Extraordinary Faith requires an extraordinary Creator! Either that or I am unknowingly lying. Tell me about it! Sometimes I think I should just give up and let the other guy win the debate. Then Jesus and I can go and actually do something without need of any money,fame, or recognition.I'll be honest with everyone though. I don't have enough faith to do what Jesus did. Does He expect me to try and do for the the least of these even over and above having a job, saving for retirement, and browsing the internet??I fall far short of what He expects.

Isn't this precisely what the young rabbi was preaching against?

well yes and no. He did advocate Holy Communion. He himself was the outward visible sign.

the question was...

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What, other than marketing, does prayer or fasting add?

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... but you replied only by posting one of the definitions of a sacrament.How does that answer the question?

Im still thinking. (I need to read The Gospels again)My gut feeling, however, is that since prayer and fasting was done by Jesus, its also recommended for us. That being said, I agree with you in that its not an absolute prerequisite to going out and doing for the least of these.Prayer allows us to clear our minds of the lusts of the eye, lusts of the flesh, and pride of life that we all get.Fasting also reminds us that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Let's head back towards the Trinity maybe but first a comment about that last quote mine. That is one of the greatest marketing scams used by Christianity. It is used solely as a marketing tool and serves no other purpose than provide an excuse for not doing what Jesus said we should do.That quote is just the snake-oil salesman's pitch from the back step of the medicine wagon while the shills in the audience shout out the amens and hallelujahs. It's used only as a preface to a sales pitch and never before actually telling folk that it really is their problem, that they caused and that they are charged to solve.Fasting should remind us of what it feels like to be hungry, to create a bond of empathy between our fat fed selves and those that do not get bread. It should show us that even every word that proceeds from the mouth of God is no substitute for bread.Now maybe back to the Trinity; the Great Inscrutable. Edited by jar, : fix sub-titleEdited by jar, : appalin spallin: then ------> than

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Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

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Jesus hung out with publicans and sinners. Chances are He watched the 1st century equivalent of football and ate the 1st century equivalent of chips and hot dogs. He may or may not have had kids to pick up.But He definitely did "volunteer at the shelter". So yes, that would be doing like Jesus taught.

My personal experience is that fastening does provide me with some extra amount of focus when accompanied by a dedicated period of Bible study or even planned acts of charity. And as far as a marketing tool, given that I would perform a fast by myself without any sharing outside of my spouse, and that no one would know I was doing it I don't know what marketing result would come from such my doing such a thing.I acknowledge that I may have missed your point. I agree that the Bible verse cited by Phat above is not really a recommendation to fast. But on the other hand, Jesus himself did mention the effectiveness of fastening directly, so there is no need to rely on a misinterpretation.In any event, fasting isn't a central teaching, in my opinion. If you don't do it, or don't see the benefit, that's certainly not something I'd find unusual.

The issue is not fasting itself but rather how that verse is used so often in the Christian Cult of Ignorance. As Phat used it the implication is that words are as good as food. Too often I hear Christians use that verse when they are challenged for not giving aid.Fasting itself can be very useful but it cannot replace bread. Give a hungry man a verse and he will still be hungry.

Okay jar. That one got a smile out of me!! And I needed one today, very badly.

Of course the Trinity is a reality. Anyone wanting to start a new religion would probably never have as a central teaching something so objectively problematic as a doctrine of a three-one God.But the Trinity is Someone man can experience and experience forever. Yet man can hardly explain. Not being able to fully explain something is not an impediment to a person experiencing and enjoying something.The skeptical assume that a Christian's failure to explain fully how God could be three-one means the truth of such a concept is not real. That is the assumption. "Oh, God is mysterious. Oh, God is a wonderful mystery. Why, that must mean that your God is not real. Everyone knows that what you experience you can always explain."There is no need for this assumption. Even in the natural life there are some matters which men enjoy but find it very difficult to explain.We experience gravity. We benefit from gravity. Gravity is hard to explain. Try explaining the curvature of space - time. Sure, you can talk a lot about it. I doubt anyone really understands how space could be curved. And the people I push on it often dazzle you with mathematical speak as a smoke screen.But a child knows about falling and something about gravity. The three-oneness of God is a wonderful mystery that man can, and even must experience and enjoy.God is the Father. God is the Son. God is the Holy Spirit.
Ultimately God is for man to experience. That verse is an encouragement to the believers to be occupied with the enjoyment of the mysterious three-one Divine Being.

Gotta look that one up... I need to study the history of this doctrine before I comment on it professionally--but on a personal note, I find it overwhelming to imagine the Creator of all seen and unseen...and of the fact that I live on a dust speck of a planet --made possible by a friendly distance Sun--among an estimated one hundred billion stars(suns)--in a galaxy among an estimated one hundred billion galaxies. That such a Creator would even acknowledge me and my whining is unfathomable. Jesus Christ makes it easier to comprehend on a one on one man on man basis. And the concept of the Holy Spirit also makes it easier to function on a day to day level secure in the belief that Gods presence and comfort (based on His love for us) is always with me.Of course the counter-argument asks why a Creator of all seen and unseen would pay any particular attention to one dust speck out of infinite possibilities.

Yet are we expected to simply enjoy the presence of such a Being or are we expected to joyfully put in work for Him?

On the contrary, objectively ridiculous doctrines encourage faith.

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Yet are we expected to simply enjoy the presence of such a Being or are we expected to joyfully put in work for Him?

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The work is His work. It is Christ living in us. The work is by His life, by His power, according to His will and guidance and by His grace.Notice that Paul said it was the grace of God which was in him which caused him to labor more abundantly than all the apostles. He labored (worked) more abundantly than even the twelve apostles. Yet it was not due to him. The grace of God that was with him empowered him.I would like you to compare that passage with another. The passage above says "Not I, but the grace of God." While this next passage says in essence "Not I but Christ". This is Christ living in Paul. " For me to live is Christ ..." (Phil. 1:21)
"When Christ our life is manifested ... " (Col. 3:4) This is Christ laboring and working through Paul.This is Paul living Christ.
This the work of God flowing from the indwelling Christ in Paul.This is Paul living a mingled life incorporated with the resurrected Christ Who lives in Paul.Paul lives and Paul works and Paul labors by FAITH in the indwelling Christ who is one with him. When you read me write about the ENJOYMENT of God, that ENJOYMENT includes the Triune God working and laboring in the Christian. First we must learn to live in the sphere and realm of Christ. Then more and more of what we do will be by the grace of Christ living one with us.In this experience Paul said that he did not render ineffective or vain the grace of God. "I do not nullify the grace of God ..." Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.