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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 234 of 1444 (765352)
07-27-2015 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Stile
07-27-2015 2:08 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Sorry but now you are just posting more nonsense even by any standards as well as continuing to misrepresent what I have said.
I did not say or imply that the thread was nonsense, only that your posts have been utter nonsense as well as totally dishonest.
It really is that simple.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Stile, posted 07-27-2015 2:08 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 241 of 1444 (765372)
07-28-2015 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Phat
07-28-2015 1:41 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Again, what does that have to do with the topic Phat?
And the RC Sproul quote at best shows his ignorance and more likely shows his carny con man tactics.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 1:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 11:42 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 248 of 1444 (765396)
07-28-2015 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Faith
07-28-2015 1:30 PM


Re: time and eternity
Faith writes:
That's a lie based on what I just said. I didn't dream it up, it's the consensus of the theologians I trust.
As folk have been saying all along Faith, you don't believe in the Bible or what the Bible actually says but rather what the "theologians" you trust claim the Bible actually says.
AbE:
You trust the fiction those theologians create like (there are no contradictions in the Bible) or (there are no errors and falsehoods in the Bible) rather than what is actually written even when what they say directly contradicts what the Bible actually says.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 1:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 2:19 PM jar has replied
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 11:46 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 253 of 1444 (765407)
07-28-2015 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Faith
07-28-2015 2:19 PM


Re: time and eternity
Faith writes:
And that's a lie too. There are things in the Bible that are hard to understand and need to be interpreted and to trust oneself alone with that responsibility is foolishness.
More utter nonsense.
It is not a matter of interpretation or understanding, it is a matter of honesty. It is a matter of actually believing that what is written in the Bible is what is written in the Bible.
Faith writes:
And by the way, if the Bible is God's word no theologian is needed to know that it can't contradict itself or say anything false.
Yet it does often contradict itself and is filled with stuff that is factually false.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 07-28-2015 2:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 262 of 1444 (765433)
07-29-2015 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
07-28-2015 11:42 PM


Re: Carny Con Men and Arrogant Intellectuals
Phat writes:
Your arrogance is showing. Sproul likely knows the bible far better than you do
Except the R.C. Sproul quote you use has absolutely nothing to do with understanding the Bible but rather Sproul's ignorance of science. Look at the quote:
quote:
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
First science does not assert that there is some force called chance.
Second, chance does have a basis in reality and can be demonstrated.
Such things are only mythologized in religion.
Phat writes:
You have fallen for the whole idea that logic and rationality trump faith when it comes to understanding. As a result, you are unwittingly leading many people down a path that leaves them with more questions and less answers than they had before.
Again, you need to stop misrepresenting my position Phat; you never seem to get it right.
There is a third element that you leave out; the trinity consists of logic, reason and reality.
And if I do leave folk with more questions then I am succeeding. You can only learn when you question the answers you have been given.
Phat writes:
This is fine IF GOD simply expects people to learn about the universe rather than about Him. Sadly, I believe that you are mistaken.
Yet you can never show how people can learn about God other than by blindly believing the utter nonsense answers they are sold.
Phat writes:
As if there is a huge number of hucksters and that the true truth seekers learn more from studying "Kim" than by meditating on Jesus Christ!
But the evidence shows that there is a huge number of hucksters and snake oil salesmen selling Jesus Christ and other products.
Phat writes:
I am thankful that we all do have Free Will because some day there will be no excuse that GOD foreordained us to a certain fate. We will have chosen it every step of the way.
So you are saying that the Calvinists are all just hucksters? You are saying that God is not omniscient?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 07-28-2015 11:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 310 of 1444 (765559)
08-01-2015 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Phat
08-01-2015 1:51 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
What business is it of ours to know what GOD knows?
What we know has nothing to do with whether or not a God that has foreknowledge yet creates beings known to be doomed is evil.
Phat writes:
Of course, Open Theism would assert that its no business of GOD what we choose.
Does Open Theism make much sense to you?
Open Theism is just another Carny sideshow, "Come see the Tattooed Lady, the two headed snake and the Man from Borneo". It is certainly less evil than Calvinism but still totally misses the Gospel which is really simple; "Do your best."

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 08-01-2015 1:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Phat, posted 08-01-2015 12:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 315 of 1444 (765590)
08-01-2015 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by Phat
08-01-2015 12:30 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
Only jar from Texas says its about doing your best.
There was someone else, I think his name was Jesus. It is recorded in a book called the Bible. Maybe you should read it sometime.
Jesus in John 21:16 writes:
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Jesus in Matthew 22:37-40 writes:
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Shall I go on Phat?
Jesus says we should try to feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, cloth the naked, teach the children, heal the sick.
Granted the version you like is certainly easier and a much easier thing to sell the gullible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Phat, posted 08-01-2015 12:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by GDR, posted 08-02-2015 9:31 PM jar has replied
 Message 317 by Phat, posted 08-03-2015 1:58 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 318 of 1444 (765644)
08-03-2015 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by GDR
08-02-2015 9:31 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
GDR writes:
Why don't you call yourself a Gandhian. Gandhi espoused the same views as Jesus without making any of the claims about himself in the manner that Jesus did. You could even call yourself a moderate Muslim if you wanted.
But I am not a Gandhian or a moderate Muslim and to call myself either would simply be a lie.
I have no problem with you wanting to call yourself a Christian. As you have pointed out you grew up in a Christian culture, attend and are active in a Christian church. However the views that you espouse are those of a theist believing in some form of deity that wants us to do our best to be nice, and nothing more. There is nothing wrong with that and it is a good thing. (Mind you, the tone of many of your posts don't reflect those views IMHO). Your views could be shared by people of nearly any faith or by an atheist. However, it isn't Christian
But I have never said there was nothing more; what I have said is that Jesus said the important job for us is to try to do. That is paramount.
Most of the other things as you point out were creations of those who were creating and marketing a new product; Christianity.
GDR writes:
I am in agreement that the Bible was written by men and we have to interpret it as such. However, it is clear the the NT authors were in agreement that Jesus rose in a re-embodied form and that they were followers of Jesus based on that.
I believe as did the NT authors that it actually happened that way and I even contend that there is good historical evidence to believe that way. It can't be proven, but that belief is foundational to the Christian faith.
And I have never disputed that the folk creating Christianity (at least those who were creating the surviving chapters of Club Christian) believed those things. But those things are not what Jesus taught or Jesus mission or Jesus ministry.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by GDR, posted 08-02-2015 9:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 12:16 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 333 of 1444 (765684)
08-04-2015 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by GDR
08-03-2015 12:16 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
GDR writes:
Sure, but those that are could hold the same beliefs that you do. Muslims view Jesus as a prophet and Gandhi says that he admired the teachings of Jesus. That doesn't make them Christians.
Sure, but all of mankind has been called by Jesus to follow His message of loving your neighbour which is a teaching common to virtually all religions and cultures to one degree or another. That doesn't make everyone a Christian.
But I have never claimed that they were Christians so what is your point?
GDR writes:
jar writes:
Most of the other things as you point out were creations of those who were creating and marketing a new product; Christianity.
Exactly my point. You have chosen to believe that the account of the resurrection specifically, but also that other aspects of the actions and teachings of Jesus were fabrications. It is those things that you don't believe that differentiate Christianity from other religions.
Again, unless you can provide specifics I cannot even fathom what point you are trying to make. There is a whole thread where I asked Christians "What is Christianity" and beyond membership in a Chapter that identifies itself as part of Club Christian or just self identification as a Christian, there were no universal features unique to Christianity.
GDR writes:
If Jesus did make those claims and those things aren't true then Jesus was, as I said, delusional and why would anyone want to follow the teachings of one who was delusional? If the stories told by the Gospel writers, and Paul for that matter, were fabrications then why bother with Christianity or the church? Better to follow Gandhi or Buddha. Also, if they were fabrications then why believe anything they said about what Jesus said and did?
People follow folk who are delusional all the time.
But there are good reasons as well. I look at the teachings of Jesus that relate to how one lives his life and his relationship with others and the universe and they seem a good path to follow. I would likely feel the same if I had been raised in a Jewish or Taoist or Atheist or Agnostic or Muslim or Buddhist family.
Even if everything said about Jesus was a fabrication, those lessons have worth and value.
But I was raised in a Christian family, educated in a Christian school and joined a Chapter of Club Christian so I am a Christian.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 12:16 PM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 334 of 1444 (765685)
08-04-2015 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by GDR
08-03-2015 9:38 PM


Re: Jesus' mission not limited to individual salvation
GDR writes:
Jar's view is, (although he doesn't phrase it this way), is simply that you do your best to be good and that is what makes you right with God.
Not true as usual.
Stop trying to make my beliefs fit on a bumper sticker.
It really is that simple.
I have no idea of what would make me right with God but the Bible and the words attributed to Jesus sure in hell tell us what would get us on God's wrong side.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by GDR, posted 08-03-2015 9:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 652 by GDR, posted 01-09-2019 8:39 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 345 of 1444 (770100)
09-29-2015 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
09-29-2015 10:38 AM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Phat writes:
jar would ask how i knew I had met Jesus. All I can say is that the word "knew" in this context is the same Biblical definition for an intimate encounter.
I would tend to agree that many if not most Christians, particularly "Biblical" and "Evangelical" Christians do fuck both God and Jesus.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 10:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 363 of 1444 (773387)
11-30-2015 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Phat
11-29-2015 4:08 PM


Re: Evidence Schmevidence
Phat writes:
I suppose this chalks up a point for the "Christianity is all about what we DO" crowd. and i suppose that what we *DO* is all of the evidence possible as to what Spirit is within us.
No, what you do is only evidence of what you do and not evidence for what Spirit is within us.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Phat, posted 11-29-2015 4:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 367 of 1444 (775670)
01-03-2016 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Phat
01-03-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
Newsflash: Its for your own good! You are not mature enough to be as gods.
That is not what God said; in fact God said that we were mature enough to be gods.
Have you ever read the Bible Phat?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 01-03-2016 3:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 10:39 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 372 of 1444 (775763)
01-04-2016 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by Phat
01-04-2016 10:39 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
What does the evidence show?
The evidence shows that you and so many others are as ignorant about reality as you are about history, the Bible, Christianity and almost every other subject.
Phat writes:
Has humanity eliminated wars in the past 2000 years?
Humanity has certainly controlled war and in just the last half century. There are fewer wars today than at any time in history and the wars that do happen lead to fewer casualties, both military and civilian than in any previous war.
Phat writes:
How about lying,cheating, and stealing?
And lying, cheating and stealing are human caused. Jesus or God will not stop them, never has and never will. The same is true of greed. Only humans can stop lying, cheating, stealing or greed.
Phat writes:
You claim we were given a charge and a responsibility.
I dont see us getting any wiser--only more confused as we try to be gods instead of submitting to the Creator of all seen and unseen...which some say is antiquated thinking.
And the evidence shows it is those people like you who are shirking, denying that responsibility; those that claim to submit to some creator, who count on anyone other than themselves to take responsibility to fix what is wrong.
The answer really is simple.
Don't lie.
Don't cheat.
Don't steal.
Take personal responsibility for all you do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 10:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 905 by Phat, posted 07-24-2020 8:09 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 381 of 1444 (782179)
04-19-2016 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by Phat
04-19-2016 4:04 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
So God foreknows my decisions...so what? Its not as if I didn't make them. Just because I know what you are going to say before you say it does not mean that you could not have said anything different...its just that you didn't.
You did not created NoNukes nor do you have the power to condemn NoNukes to hell.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by Phat, posted 04-19-2016 4:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Phat, posted 04-20-2016 2:29 AM jar has replied

  
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