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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 384 of 1444 (782192)
04-20-2016 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Phat
04-20-2016 2:29 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
So your basic argument is that if god has the power, he should always use it for our benefit?
Not at all. My basic argument is that if God has the power and uses it for evil then that God should be opposed, reviled, condemned.
Phat writes:
I will say that your belief would make sense only if people were judged solely on their behavior. What if people were judged on their trust in God rather than their responsibility to themselves and others?
Then that is a God who should be opposed, reviled, condemned.
Phat writes:
What if we were taught that we can never be good enough? What if we were taught that God Himself will cover our shortcomings?
Then your teachers should be opposed, reviled, condemned.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Phat, posted 04-20-2016 2:29 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by Phat, posted 04-20-2016 11:48 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 387 of 1444 (782202)
04-20-2016 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 386 by Phat
04-20-2016 11:48 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
Would you go so far as to say that the God that Paul marketed be opposed, reviled, condemned?
Which God that Paul marketed? His sales pitch changed over time. But yes, some of the things Paul tried to market should be opposed, reviled, condemned!
Phat writes:
And again I ask: would you yourself refuse such a hypothetical offer (of imparted wisdom,grace,forgiveness...) from God? If you did, would it not show that you take pride in being responsible and consider it a necessary honor and duty?
Of course I would refuse the bargain that you try to market and of course oppose, revile and condemn such a God.
But that says nothing really about me and only reflects on the worthlessness of that God.
Edited by jar, : answer Phat's addition.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by Phat, posted 04-20-2016 11:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 512 of 1444 (787022)
07-01-2016 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 509 by Phat
07-01-2016 12:12 AM


Re: Being Obedient Is Good For Everyone
Phat writes:
In each of the examples you mention, the people brought it upon themselves. They were either disobedient, worshiping idols, or flat out evil. Care to comment?
But is that really true? Have you read the Bible stories Phat?
Can you point out where those being killed were evil?
Does being disobedient justify getting killed?
Does worshiping idols justify getting killed?
Does the behavior of other people justify YOU getting killed?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Phat, posted 07-01-2016 12:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 515 of 1444 (787129)
07-04-2016 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by Phat
07-04-2016 4:25 PM


Re: Literary Character or Literal Chaacter?
Phat writes:
slavery is a natural consequence of idolatry...since we become a slave to whatever addiction masters us
That is just another really embarrassing thing for you to say. Do you seriously think slaves were the result of being addicted to some master?
Sheesh Phat, think.
Phat writes:
One problem in these types of debates is in reference to god as simply a character in a book rather than an actual relationship in the mind and heart. It is rather difficult to arrive at any sort of consensus when the character is a creation of humanity in the belief of some, while an actual presence in the belief of others.
Yet what does the evidence show Phat. Can you make a case for any of the Gods in the Bible stories being anything other than characters in a book?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 07-04-2016 4:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 528 of 1444 (790855)
09-06-2016 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by Phat
09-06-2016 6:45 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
The reason I bring this scripture up is because we were talking about a God who fore-knowingly creates....
Why did Jesus tell them that their father was Satan?
Would a God who foreknew that ones father was going to be Satan be guilty based on foreknowledge alone? Would not,in fact the "God that you claim should be violently opposed" in fact be Satan rather than Creator God?
Whose fault was it that Satan was their father?
What difference would it make if God had foreknown that Satan would be their father from the beginning?
If the God character has foreknowledge then it is all God's fault and only God is responsible.
Phat writes:
Did God create Satan or did God merely create Lucifer? Did Abraham father the Jews in my scripture example or was Jesus correct in attributing their father as Satan?
Neither position is true. If the God character has foreknowledge then the God character is fully and absolutely responsible for everything that happens. Satan is as Satan is depicted in most of the Bible, simply doing God's will.
Remember, the author of John was marketing a revisionist picture and version of Christianity, of Jesus and of Judaism.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Phat, posted 09-06-2016 6:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 529 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 11:02 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 530 of 1444 (790884)
09-07-2016 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 529 by Phat
09-07-2016 11:02 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
do you believe in or imagine a "God character".....that somehow does not know what our futures will be? If so, I'm trying to imagine how such a character would be.
What I believe is irrelevant to the logic. If there is a God that is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen and that God has foreknowledge and that God creates humans that will get damned to hell then that God is evil.
Phat writes:
Does this character exist in past, present and future as one continuum?
I have no idea and again, that is irrelevant to the logic of the argument.
Phat writes:
Does this character react to human decision?
I have no idea of any possible way to test that question.
Phat writes:
Is this the character which you have described before as a God that is learning on the job and whom we often or even occasionally correct?
Again, unknown. That God is one of the Gods of Scripture.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 11:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 531 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 11:26 AM jar has replied
 Message 532 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 11:31 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 533 of 1444 (790888)
09-07-2016 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 531 by Phat
09-07-2016 11:26 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
How should a God character behave in order for us to not oppose and revile said character?
Not like the Gods of Scripture.
AbE:
Phat writes:
Another way to frame this question:
If there is a God that is the creator of all seen and unseen,Who directly or indirectly is responsible for the creation of humans, are you then saying that our charge is irrelevant to whether this God lioves us, hates us, or is indifferent to us? Are you saying that it is about what we do period? In essence are you preaching that we all should simply throw God away and act according to our conscience?
I have no idea how your conscience would direct your behavior.
Whether GOD, if GOD exists loves or hates or is indifferent to us would certainly have an effect.
But that is of course irrelevant to what we are charged to do. I believe we are charged to behave NOT according to our conscience but rather as commanded by Jesus and other spiritual teachers. We are commanded to feed the hungry, clothe the naked (except at nudist beaches), shelter the homeless, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, protect the weak, teach the ignorant. Even when our conscience tells us we don't have to do that.
Edited by jar, : add reply to Phat's second epistle

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 11:26 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 534 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 3:54 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 535 of 1444 (793036)
10-19-2016 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 534 by Phat
10-19-2016 3:54 AM


Re: Behavior Of A Creator
Phat writes:
Phat writes:
How should a God character behave in order for us to not oppose and revile said character?
jar writes:
Not like the Gods of Scripture.
Do you believe that Jesus is God?(Now...not while on earth)
Do you believe in the concept of the Trinity? GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen, surely could make himself known to we ants by becoming an ant. In addition, an omnipresent Spirit shouldn't be that difficult of a concept to grasp.
If GOD behaved in a friendly caring manner to humanity, is that such a difficult concept to imagine?
Once again your response seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the passages you quoted.
Phat writes:
Do you believe that Jesus is God?(Now...not while on earth)
Do you believe in the concept of the Trinity?
Kinda sorta. The concept of the Trinity is part of the "mystery" of Trinitarian Christianity. It makes no sense, cannot really be explained or understood and almost all of the analogies used as teaching tools are so flawed that they just drive folk away scratching their heads.
The only Trinitarian explanation I have ever come across that makes any sense whatsoever is the who vs what dichotomy; WHO they are and WHAT they are but it also includes the necessary understanding that we hare no longer talking about monotheism.
Phat writes:
GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen, surely could make himself known to we ants by becoming an ant.
How? If God became a man then what we would know would be a man.
What might be learned is that God might begin to learn what it means to be man.
Phat writes:
In addition, an omnipresent Spirit shouldn't be that difficult of a concept to grasp.
Again, what does that even mean? How would one identify an omnipresent Spirit and what would such a critter do?
Phat writes:
If GOD behaved in a friendly caring manner to humanity, is that such a difficult concept to imagine?
But as has been pointed out the Gods found in scripture often do not behave in a friendly caring manner to humanity.
Phat writes:
jar writes:
But that is of course irrelevant to what we are charged to do. I believe we are charged to behave NOT according to our conscience but rather as commanded by Jesus and other spiritual teachers.
So GOD as taskmaster. Supreme Commander Of all things seen and unseen, disciplining the ants that He so loves.
Again, how is your response related in anyway to what you quoted?
Nowhere did I mention any Supreme Commander or anything about disciplining anyone.
What I mentioned was that we must do.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 3:54 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 10:51 AM jar has replied
 Message 538 by Phat, posted 10-22-2016 8:57 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 537 of 1444 (793057)
10-19-2016 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by Phat
10-19-2016 10:51 AM


Re: Behavior Of A Creator
Phat writes:
Too funny. God needs to learn nothing. Jesus was in the beginning with the father. Therefore there would be no later time frame in which GOD would learn anything. Indeed it would be a learning experience for us to imagine a GOD becoming human. For GOD, however, Who exists in every past, present and future moment, the lesson was already internalized. He did it because He loved us.
So you keep saying but of course that is not what scripture says and so far it seems that also has no real meaning.
Phat writes:
Perhaps for you, His life was more of a teaching example than His death.
There you go again trying to say what I think and as usual, get everything wrong.
How is Jesus death a teaching moment? What is there to learn from that moment?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 10:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 539 of 1444 (793159)
10-22-2016 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 538 by Phat
10-22-2016 8:57 AM


Re: Behavior Of A Creator
Phat writes:
jar writes:
Nowhere did I mention any Supreme Commander or anything about disciplining anyone.
What I mentioned was that we must do.
Yes. You mention that we are charged.
Who or what charges us? Is the charge self internalized or is it from a higher source?
The charge is of course self generated. It can be attributed to most any source and has been so attributed to various Gods, the Buddha, several different philosophical systems and to basic humanity.
The source is irrelevant.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 538 by Phat, posted 10-22-2016 8:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 542 of 1444 (795144)
12-06-2016 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Phat
12-06-2016 6:57 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
You may well disagree but the reasons you outlined have nothing to do with the position I have presented.
What the person does is totally irrelevant to the fact that a God who with foreknowledge creates someone who will be damned is evil and beyond being simply venial.
Such a God must be condemned by any thinking individual.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Phat, posted 12-06-2016 6:57 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 546 of 1444 (795153)
12-06-2016 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by Phat
12-06-2016 7:33 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
What if God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will break their leg? Or fall off a ciff? or commit treason? Is God responsible for any of those results?
You still don't get it.
What the person does is irrelevant. If the God has foreknowledge that a person will be damned and still creates that person then the God is a monster.
It really is that simple.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Phat, posted 12-06-2016 7:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Phat, posted 12-07-2016 1:09 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 552 of 1444 (795168)
12-07-2016 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 549 by Phat
12-07-2016 1:09 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
jar writes:
If the God has foreknowledge that a person will be damned and still creates that person then the God is a monster.
What if God only knows that we have free will? What if He has intentionally left our destiny up to us?
In this case I would admit that God is not all knowing, but I would add that this is a decision by His choice...so as to leave us responsible for our destiny.
Then God does not have foreknowledge and the example I provided does not apply.
The problem is when Christians claim God is omniscient.
If God is not omniscient then God is also not all powerful.
And if God is not omniscient then God is capable of making mistakes.
Which brings us back to many of the Gods described in the Bible stories, a God that is not all knowing, that does not know the future, that does make mistakes and that does need correcting at times.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Phat, posted 12-07-2016 1:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Phat, posted 12-08-2016 12:23 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 554 of 1444 (795201)
12-08-2016 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by Phat
12-08-2016 12:23 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
No, I believe that the problem comes when people claim to be omniscient regarding GOD and that by claiming we know Him so well, we actually create division among people here on earth. Let me ask you this: In your belief, is GOD omniscient?
If GOD is omniscient the GOD is evil. According to the Bible God is NOT omniscient.
Who claims to know GOD? Certainly not me?
Phat writes:
GOD apparently is unknowable, though my belief asserts that holy communion can at least be established with GOD through Jesus Christ.
Yet you never explain how that might be possible.
Phat writes:
To me, the idea that the Creator of all seen and unseen is not all-powerful stems from a different religion and understanding than the one I was brought up in.
Yet according to the Bible that is exactly the case. The God described in the Bible is often unsure, afraid, inept, petty, ignorant, dishonest, sly, untrustworthy, cruel, unjust...
Phat writes:
Would you say that GOD can make mistakes?
The Bible stories have the God character admitting he has made mistakes.
Phat writes:
The God of your imagination certainly seems to be agreeable to this philosophy. The God of my imagination is against such blasphemy.
The problem is the difference between the Gods we create and the GOD.
The God found in Genesis 2 & 3 is not of my imagination, it is the product of them what wrote, edited, redacted and translated the stories. The God that wrestles with Jacob is not of my imagination but the imagination of them what wrote, edited, redacted and translated the story. The God of Exodus is not the product of my imagination but of them what wrote, edited, redacted and translated the story.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Phat, posted 12-08-2016 12:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by Phat, posted 12-08-2016 7:00 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34063
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 556 of 1444 (795218)
12-08-2016 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 555 by Phat
12-08-2016 7:00 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:
When I ask him about some of what we discuss, his response is that the people whom i talk with are not believers.
LOL
And you do not just laugh when he says that?
Sheesh. He just flat admits his position is baseless and you do not challenge it?
Phat writes:
Thus, one major difference I see between you and the others is that you have not accepted the "new religion" that you claim Paul and the redactors teach and have spread.
Thank God!

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by Phat, posted 12-08-2016 7:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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