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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2749 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 376 of 1444 (775976)
01-07-2016 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Phat
01-03-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Hi, Phat.
Phat writes:
Just because God foreknows what will happen does not necessarily mean that He caused it to happen.
That's not the point. The point is that if there really is free will, then the future is at least partially contingent on decisions we haven't made yet. So, there should always be some level of uncertainty as to what the future holds. In other words, the future should not be foreknowable, and God's prophecies should all be probabilistic, rather than definitive.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 01-03-2016 3:51 PM Phat has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 377 of 1444 (776108)
01-08-2016 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Phat
01-03-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Just because God foreknows what will happen does not necessarily mean that He caused it to happen. He may well have scripted it---in fact, eternity itself may have a script. I see the counterarguments but all it shows me is that some people insist that they dont have free will because they can never do anything outside of the script. I have no problem with this, nor should anyone because who in their right mind would want to be independent of God, anyway? (Apart from satan)
This is in my mind the reason people claim they have no free will. Its only because they want to be truly free and independant of a scripted reality.
It really doesn't make much sense any other way though. If God is the Creator, and assuming you don't believe in a deist, hands-off approach, then nothing exists apart from his will. So it stands to reason that this much control negates freewill since it would have to be scripted and that rather what we're actually seeing is the illusion of freewill. You think you have a choice but your fate was already sealed before your creation.
And this is the problem that I have with concepts of sin within the Judeo-Christian framework. God imparts certain innate qualities, but then gets pissed when you do the very thing you were programmed to do. That would make him directly complicit, no?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 01-03-2016 3:51 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by jaywill, posted 04-19-2016 11:52 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1992 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 378 of 1444 (782174)
04-19-2016 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by Hyroglyphx
01-08-2016 6:03 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
quote:
And this is the problem that I have with concepts of sin within the Judeo-Christian framework. God imparts certain innate qualities, but then gets pissed when you do the very thing you were programmed to do. That would make him directly complicit, no?
I do not believe that it is absolutely impossible that God could not have created beings with free will.
It seems your kind of concern says that free will of created beings and a Creator impossible to exist.
I don't think that is what is going on, that God has created robots who only can do as He commands, and freedom of choice is an illusion.
I do think that in eternity past God determined that all rebellion against His will would be accumulated under on grand repository - an tremendously beautiful and smart being who would become Satan. Satan forms that grand repository whose function under God's providence, was to contain any and all contrariness of all created beings who decide for their own reasons, that they want nothing to do with God.
How long the creation went on before this great repository came about, I do not know. I think this being who took the lead among all other beings to corrupt himself was providentially assigned to be the head over all other creatures who desire not to be under God's administration.
Man, created neutral and innocent, fell into that repository with the rebellious angels and demons who already occupied that reservoir of rejection of the Almighty.
In His foreknowledge God prepared a grand repository in which to sweep ALL beings who decide for their own reasons that their free decision chooses to reject their Creator.
The story of the rest of the Bible involves His great love and plan of salvation that we be saved from the Satanic rebellion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-08-2016 6:03 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2016 3:59 PM jaywill has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 379 of 1444 (782176)
04-19-2016 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by jaywill
04-19-2016 11:52 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
I do not believe that it is absolutely impossible that God could not have created beings with free will.
I've read this several times, and I am still not sure what you mean. Rather than make a guess, because my guesses in these situations are always wrong, can I ask for help?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by jaywill, posted 04-19-2016 11:52 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by Phat, posted 04-19-2016 4:04 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 382 by jaywill, posted 04-19-2016 8:26 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 380 of 1444 (782177)
04-19-2016 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by NoNukes
04-19-2016 3:59 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
So God foreknows my decisions...so what? Its not as if I didn't make them. Just because I know what you are going to say before you say it does not mean that you could not have said anything different...its just that you didn't.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2016 3:59 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by jar, posted 04-19-2016 4:07 PM Phat has replied
 Message 391 by Blue Jay, posted 04-22-2016 11:36 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 381 of 1444 (782179)
04-19-2016 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by Phat
04-19-2016 4:04 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
So God foreknows my decisions...so what? Its not as if I didn't make them. Just because I know what you are going to say before you say it does not mean that you could not have said anything different...its just that you didn't.
You did not created NoNukes nor do you have the power to condemn NoNukes to hell.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by Phat, posted 04-19-2016 4:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Phat, posted 04-20-2016 2:29 AM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1992 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 382 of 1444 (782184)
04-19-2016 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by NoNukes
04-19-2016 3:59 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
You wrote this:
quote:
And this is the problem that I have with concepts of sin within the Judeo-Christian framework. God imparts certain innate qualities, but then gets pissed when you do the very thing you were programmed to do. That would make him directly complicit, no?
I wrote:
quote:
I do not believe that it is absolutely impossible that God could not have created beings with free will.
When you say read it several times and have trouble understanding what I wrote, I assume you are talking about the sentence above.
Perhaps writing it in a positive sense helps with clarity.
I believe that it is possible that the innate freedom of will put into man could conceivably be used by man to act contrary to God's pleasure. In this God is not complicit in that error.
The original sentence agrees that God our Creator can be somewhat compared to a programmer. For you said -
quote:
God imparts certain innate qualities, but then gets pissed when you do the very thing you were programmed to do.
I understood you to mean that God us angered because the PROGRAM (namely created man) operates according to the way the Programmer designed the PROGRAM (man) to work.
In other words, man can only work according to the innate design that his Creator has bestowed on him. So doesn't this make the Creator complicit if the creation simply works as it was designed to do ? And why should the Creator be angry?
I understand you to mean that it is impossible for the creation - man to not live by the innate characteristics designed into him by God.
My first sentence put forth my belief that this was not exactly the situation with God and his creature man. And for that reason I do it is possible that God's creation had the ability to act in a manner displeasing to his Designer or Maker.
It is possible that God created man with a freedom to do against the will of God.
The rest of my post was something about the history and explanation and function of the arch-wrong choosing being who enticed man to make the wrong choice against the will of God and man's own well being.
I like Psalm 33:15 which says God, the Creator fashioned man's heart and then observes man's deeds. This I take that though our soul is fashioned and designed by God, He has placed within an innate freedom. He observes what we do with this freedom.
"He who fashions the hearts of them all; He who discerns all their works. "
I hope this helped you to understand my thought better. This is brief. And this post should not be assumed to be an exhaustive synapses of everything the Bible reveals. I am aware that this post probably gives rise to other questions.
Does my sentence make more sense to you now?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2016 3:59 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by NoNukes, posted 04-20-2016 11:30 AM jaywill has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 383 of 1444 (782187)
04-20-2016 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by jar
04-19-2016 4:07 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
jar writes:
You did not create NoNukes nor do you have the power to condemn NoNukes to hell.
So your basic argument is that if god has the power, he should always use it for our benefit?
What if a wee lad in Baltimore never bought into the idea of accepting jesus---perhaps due to the fact that he had Jewish influence and thought in his upbringing,combined with his own logical conclusion that a God who foreknows eventual outcomes is in fact evil if those outcomes are detrimental to humans---even only one of us. I suppose that you expect GOD to give everyone a free pass rather than only some folk. I will say that your belief would make sense only if people were judged solely on their behavior. What if people were judged on their trust in God rather than their responsibility to themselves and others? What if we were taught that we can never be good enough? What if we were taught that God Himself will cover our shortcomings?
You may say that its all a cop out and absolves humans of the responsibility that they need and should embrace.
While you may have a point, would you yourself refuse such a hypothetical offer from God? If you did, would it not show that you take pride in being responsible and consider it a necessary honor and duty?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by jar, posted 04-19-2016 4:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by jar, posted 04-20-2016 8:39 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 384 of 1444 (782192)
04-20-2016 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Phat
04-20-2016 2:29 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
So your basic argument is that if god has the power, he should always use it for our benefit?
Not at all. My basic argument is that if God has the power and uses it for evil then that God should be opposed, reviled, condemned.
Phat writes:
I will say that your belief would make sense only if people were judged solely on their behavior. What if people were judged on their trust in God rather than their responsibility to themselves and others?
Then that is a God who should be opposed, reviled, condemned.
Phat writes:
What if we were taught that we can never be good enough? What if we were taught that God Himself will cover our shortcomings?
Then your teachers should be opposed, reviled, condemned.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Phat, posted 04-20-2016 2:29 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by Phat, posted 04-20-2016 11:48 AM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 385 of 1444 (782198)
04-20-2016 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by jaywill
04-19-2016 8:26 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
You wrote this:
And this is the problem that I have with concepts of sin within the Judeo-Christian framework. God imparts certain innate qualities, but then gets pissed when you do the very thing you were programmed to do. That would make him directly complicit, no?
No, I did not write that. Nor did I write most of the other things your posts indicates that I wrote. The following is the sole exception
NoNukes writes:
I do not believe that it is absolutely impossible that God could not have created beings with free will.
jaywill writes:
When you say read it several times and have trouble understanding what I wrote, I assume you are talking about the sentence above.
In fact, given that my post consisted of a quote of exactly the sentence above and nothing else mentioned in your post, your assumption must almost certainly be correct. And the assumption is correct. To be more pointed, the sentence I quoted contains so many negations that I am not sure what you are saying you believe is possible or impossible for God. I don't know the answer to that question even after reading your response. My question was not meant to be a debating tactic; I wanted to know understand your meaning. I'm willing to let that go.
Generally speaking the views expressed here regarding omniscience, predestination, and guilt are things that philosophers have discussed at length. The responses in this thread (not necessarily or specifically yours) barely skim the surface on those topics and accordingly the conclusions reached and the assumptions about how these things apply to God are, IMO, extremely simplistic.
In fact, so simplistic that with respect to non believers, I find the conundrums they express to be of limited interest. Many times I see 'Can God make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it' sort of questions. But I am curious to see how believers resolve such question.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by jaywill, posted 04-19-2016 8:26 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by jaywill, posted 04-20-2016 2:16 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 386 of 1444 (782201)
04-20-2016 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by jar
04-20-2016 8:39 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Would you go so far as to say that the God that Paul marketed be opposed, reviled, condemned?
And again I ask: would you yourself refuse such a hypothetical offer (of imparted wisdom,grace,forgiveness...) from God? If you did, would it not show that you take pride in being responsible and consider it a necessary honor and duty?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by jar, posted 04-20-2016 8:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by jar, posted 04-20-2016 11:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 387 of 1444 (782202)
04-20-2016 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 386 by Phat
04-20-2016 11:48 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Phat writes:
Would you go so far as to say that the God that Paul marketed be opposed, reviled, condemned?
Which God that Paul marketed? His sales pitch changed over time. But yes, some of the things Paul tried to market should be opposed, reviled, condemned!
Phat writes:
And again I ask: would you yourself refuse such a hypothetical offer (of imparted wisdom,grace,forgiveness...) from God? If you did, would it not show that you take pride in being responsible and consider it a necessary honor and duty?
Of course I would refuse the bargain that you try to market and of course oppose, revile and condemn such a God.
But that says nothing really about me and only reflects on the worthlessness of that God.
Edited by jar, : answer Phat's addition.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by Phat, posted 04-20-2016 11:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1992 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 388 of 1444 (782207)
04-20-2016 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by NoNukes
04-20-2016 11:30 AM


quote:
No, I did not write that. Nor did I write most of the other things your posts indicates that I wrote. The following is the sole exception
Excuse me for attributing a quote to you which was not yours - a mechanical oversight.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by NoNukes, posted 04-20-2016 11:30 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 389 of 1444 (782222)
04-20-2016 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by New Cat's Eye
12-28-2006 3:29 PM


Re: Omnipotence trumps all
Cat Sci writes:
If God exists and is omnipotent then he is capable of anything, by definition. He is even capable of that which is logically impossible. He is even capable of allowing free will to coexist with his omniscience.
If you say that he is not capable of even one thing, us having free will while he is omniscient, then he isn't omnipotent but something very close to it although still not it. So, if God is omnipotent then the coexistence of our free will and his omniscience has to be at least possible.
This was written ten years ago, Cat. Do you still believe it?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2006 3:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-21-2016 9:29 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 390 of 1444 (782232)
04-21-2016 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 389 by Phat
04-20-2016 8:14 PM


Re: Omnipotence trumps all
Cat Sci writes:
If God exists and is omnipotent then he is capable of anything, by definition. He is even capable of that which is logically impossible. He is even capable of allowing free will to coexist with his omniscience.
If you say that he is not capable of even one thing, us having free will while he is omniscient, then he isn't omnipotent but something very close to it although still not it. So, if God is omnipotent then the coexistence of our free will and his omniscience has to be at least possible.
This was written ten years ago, Cat. Do you still believe it?
I'm not sure if "believe it" is the right phrase... It's a simple matter of what the words mean, so yeah, I still think I'm correct, but its not something that carries any weight with me, or anything that I really care about enough to have a belief in.
I don't find omnipotence to be a very useful concept, and it is pretty ridiculous in itself. As my subtitle says, it can be used to trump anything and everything.
Could omnipotence create a rock so heavy that it couldn't lift it? Well sure, it can do anything. It could create a situation where the rock exists in logical contradiction of being both too heavy to lift, while as also being lift-able.
'cause if it couldn't, then that would be something that it couldn't do, which would mean that it couldn't do anything and everything, which would mean that it isn't omnipotence.
But what does that do for me? How can the concept of omnipotence offer any utility at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by Phat, posted 04-20-2016 8:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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