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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 360 of 1444 (773323)
11-29-2015 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by ringo
11-27-2015 12:17 PM


Re: Evidence Schmevidence
I suppose this chalks up a point for the "Christianity is all about what we DO" crowd. and i suppose that what we *DO* is all of the evidence possible as to what Spirit is within us.
It sounds like a rewrite of the Good Samaritan....hungry, beaten and stranded by the side of the road....a weary traveler watched two Christians and a Muslim pass them by and then was rescued by a friendly atheist!
Which to me would be evidence that the atheist would get saved eventually.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

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 Message 359 by ringo, posted 11-27-2015 12:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Pressie, posted 11-30-2015 8:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 365 of 1444 (773403)
12-01-2015 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by Hyroglyphx
12-01-2015 2:47 AM


Re: Flickering Christians?
But I don't consider your case one identified as "backsliding". You have been forthright and honest..."seeing things as they really are"...and acknowledging that you drifted apart from "something". You in fact had faith to begin with.
AbE: Besides...if you divorced "Her" who else could take Her place?
Edited by Phat, : added

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-01-2015 2:47 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 366 of 1444 (775642)
01-03-2016 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Asgara
12-29-2006 10:46 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Asgara writes:
Does he or does he not already have your life scripted out before he creates you? If he doesn't then he doesn't know what will happen.
I disagree. Just because God foreknows what will happen does not necessarily mean that He caused it to happen. He may well have scripted it---in fact, eternity itself may have a script. I see the counterarguments but all it shows me is that some people insist that they dont have free will because they can never do anything outside of the script. I have no problem with this, nor should anyone because who in their right mind would want to be independent of God, anyway? (Apart from satan)
This is in my mind the reason people claim they have no free will. Its only because they want to be truly free and independant of a scripted reality.
Newsflash: Its for your own good! You are not mature enough to be as gods.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 10:46 PM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by jar, posted 01-03-2016 9:13 PM Phat has replied
 Message 370 by ringo, posted 01-04-2016 11:13 AM Phat has replied
 Message 376 by Blue Jay, posted 01-07-2016 11:17 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 377 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-08-2016 6:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 368 of 1444 (775709)
01-04-2016 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by jar
01-03-2016 9:13 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
What does the evidence show?
Has humanity eliminated wars in the past 2000 years?
How about lying,cheating, and stealing?
Greed, anyone?
You claim we were given a charge and a responsibility.
I dont see us getting any wiser--only more confused as we try to be gods instead of submitting to the Creator of all seen and unseen...which some say is antiquated thinking.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by jar, posted 01-03-2016 9:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Tangle, posted 01-04-2016 11:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 372 by jar, posted 01-04-2016 6:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 371 of 1444 (775746)
01-04-2016 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by ringo
01-04-2016 11:13 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
ringo writes:
The fictional character "Satan" represents our own free will. What "Satan" wants IS what we want. Every time we're tempted to do something that we "shouldn't", we're wanting to be independent of God.
This actually struck a chord in my intuition. It sounds right.
What this means, then..is that we humans have an inborn desire to rebel.
Perhaps this is what "Original Sin" actually is....an inborn desire to rebel.
So did God choose it for us by offering it as an option?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by ringo, posted 01-04-2016 11:13 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by ringo, posted 01-05-2016 10:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 374 of 1444 (775947)
01-07-2016 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by ringo
01-05-2016 10:44 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
What doesn't make sense about a lot of theology is that He would give us free will and then punish us for using it.
I tend to believe that God disciplines (teaches)rather than punishes.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by ringo, posted 01-05-2016 10:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by ringo, posted 01-07-2016 10:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 380 of 1444 (782177)
04-19-2016 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by NoNukes
04-19-2016 3:59 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
So God foreknows my decisions...so what? Its not as if I didn't make them. Just because I know what you are going to say before you say it does not mean that you could not have said anything different...its just that you didn't.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2016 3:59 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by jar, posted 04-19-2016 4:07 PM Phat has replied
 Message 391 by Blue Jay, posted 04-22-2016 11:36 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 383 of 1444 (782187)
04-20-2016 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by jar
04-19-2016 4:07 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
jar writes:
You did not create NoNukes nor do you have the power to condemn NoNukes to hell.
So your basic argument is that if god has the power, he should always use it for our benefit?
What if a wee lad in Baltimore never bought into the idea of accepting jesus---perhaps due to the fact that he had Jewish influence and thought in his upbringing,combined with his own logical conclusion that a God who foreknows eventual outcomes is in fact evil if those outcomes are detrimental to humans---even only one of us. I suppose that you expect GOD to give everyone a free pass rather than only some folk. I will say that your belief would make sense only if people were judged solely on their behavior. What if people were judged on their trust in God rather than their responsibility to themselves and others? What if we were taught that we can never be good enough? What if we were taught that God Himself will cover our shortcomings?
You may say that its all a cop out and absolves humans of the responsibility that they need and should embrace.
While you may have a point, would you yourself refuse such a hypothetical offer from God? If you did, would it not show that you take pride in being responsible and consider it a necessary honor and duty?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by jar, posted 04-19-2016 4:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by jar, posted 04-20-2016 8:39 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 386 of 1444 (782201)
04-20-2016 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by jar
04-20-2016 8:39 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Would you go so far as to say that the God that Paul marketed be opposed, reviled, condemned?
And again I ask: would you yourself refuse such a hypothetical offer (of imparted wisdom,grace,forgiveness...) from God? If you did, would it not show that you take pride in being responsible and consider it a necessary honor and duty?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by jar, posted 04-20-2016 8:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by jar, posted 04-20-2016 11:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 389 of 1444 (782222)
04-20-2016 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by New Cat's Eye
12-28-2006 3:29 PM


Re: Omnipotence trumps all
Cat Sci writes:
If God exists and is omnipotent then he is capable of anything, by definition. He is even capable of that which is logically impossible. He is even capable of allowing free will to coexist with his omniscience.
If you say that he is not capable of even one thing, us having free will while he is omniscient, then he isn't omnipotent but something very close to it although still not it. So, if God is omnipotent then the coexistence of our free will and his omniscience has to be at least possible.
This was written ten years ago, Cat. Do you still believe it?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2006 3:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-21-2016 9:29 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 392 of 1444 (782388)
04-22-2016 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Blue Jay
04-22-2016 11:36 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
except that God and chance are not synonymous. If chance exists, God doesnt.
There is a vast difference, moreover, between chance and probability. Not every event can be calculated according to probability.
If God foreknows, it would make the actual events in life at 100%...and the alternatives at 0%. lest people get hurt that they cant control their destinies. If, however, God takes into account all of our decisions as a part of his overall foreknowledge, we could hypothetically have 100% freewill and God could still foreknow 100% what will occur. The only thing you cant do is decide for yourself the 0% path. If you do, your freewill just got you in a heap of trouble.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Blue Jay, posted 04-22-2016 11:36 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Blue Jay, posted 04-22-2016 5:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 404 of 1444 (782532)
04-25-2016 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by New Cat's Eye
04-25-2016 4:10 PM


Hypothetical Phat Musings
I just wanted to throw a few hypotheticals into this mix.
  • Could it be that God is the ultimate observer and that without His observation, nothing would or could even happen? Is it possible that humans cant or wont understand His determinism? Is it also possible that we either exist---or not---based on a communion between His determinism and our free will?
    Note the following scriptures:
    Rev 1:4-5(NIV) writes:
    --Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
    Note that was, is, and is to come imply past, present and future.
    Rev 17:8 writes:
    The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
    Note that certain people are absent from the Book of life. Also note that once was, now is not, and will come imply a past, a future, and yet no present. Perhaps that is why the names are not found in the book.
    I realize that I am entirely speculating on this stuff, but to me I see God as foreknowing only what people decide. Thus, His determinism is based on our communion or lack thereof. One could argue that people have no choice to do anything other than what is known, but I will argue that we literally become the decisions that we make.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 403 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-25-2016 4:10 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 436 of 1444 (784180)
    05-13-2016 4:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 435 by New Cat's Eye
    05-13-2016 3:30 PM


    Re: Definition of free will
    The issue is that if the future is knowable, then we are powerless to change it and therefore do not have free will.
    But what if we had already made our choice? Why would we choose to change our choice---irregardless of the fact that we couldnt? Just because God knows the future does not mean that he chose it for us. In my argument, He let us "choose" it...and yet foreknew what we would choose..(unless we use the Open Theism argument)
    Edited by Phat, : changed adminphat to phat...oops

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 461 of 1444 (784998)
    05-27-2016 2:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 458 by Stile
    05-18-2016 10:27 AM


    Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
    Stile writes:
    You (Cat Sci) seemed to suggest that during the playback (when you're experiencing it) you should be able to "make another decision" that what you did at the beginning of the universe.
    This is where it's all "one thing."
    If you record yourself and play it back, you don't get to remake decisions you made during the recording... the playback isn't a "2nd you" running through the scenario again who can decide this or that differently.
    There's only one time where the decisions happen... during the recording... during the creation of the universe.
    The present moment playback "experience of the present" can be looked at as the ultimate playback of the recording.
    You get sight, smell, taste, feelings... you go through the entire experience of the moment.
    But... it's still a playback, not some sort of feedback loop.
    All of time was created at the beginning of the universe, the 'present time' is simply how we (for whatever reason) experience the universe.
    I can conceive of this argument and analogy to a degree, and coming from you Stile it is respectable. Allow me to introduce my analogy based on my understanding of the Christian God (at least my version )
    1) Picture a Creator of all seen and unseen. This Creator is alive and aware in the past, present, and future. For the purpose of my analogy, lets allow this Creator to become human. (Jesus, of course.)
    This Creator is walking beside you right now...in the present moment. He now shows you your past....all of it. He first shows you that you were known by Him even before you were born. Next, He shows that the free willed decisions of your parents led to your birth and how many decisions were made for you when you were very young. He then shows you after the age of accountability and personal responsibility...when you made most of the decisions in your life. Some were made for you by others, of course....but you freely reacted to these events and thus assured that you were actively reacting to the process. Most of the time you initiated your decisions...and the rest of the time you reacted to circumstances beyond your ultimate control.(such as a car wreck, for example)
    2) God then asks you whether you could or would have chose any of your past decisions differently. At that present moment...as you conversed with Him, you admitted that you made quite a few wrong decisions and if you had the opportunity you would have chosen differently. Reality dictates, however, that we cannot change our past except through course corrections in the present which may lead to a different future than the trajectory that we were on.
    3) You cannot argue that you were unable to do otherwise...except in matters of necessary reaction to circumstances. Next you pause....as the One whom understands past, present and future also lovingly pauses next to you. The Past is History and the Future is in fact a mystery...at least as far as you are concerned at that very moment in time. Nevertheless, just as it has been shown that you chose your past,it can be extrapolated that you will also choose your future.
    I have shown this Revelations analogy a few times before regarding time and reality.
    In this analogy, I show the possible reality of Jesus Christ as past (was) present (Is) and will be (future). In my belief, this analogy is unchangeable and written in stone. It is determined. No ones free will could ever erase this person....except perhaps through mental denial.
    The Beast, on the other hand, represents a reality unknown by Jesus.(Depart from me I never knew you)
    The Beast Once Was, Now Is Not,(unknown) and yet Is for those whose names are not written in the book of life. Thus there is no hope for these people(or concepts or ideas or whatever) At least currently.They once existed...now no longer exist, and yet may exist...as a judgement, perhaps...of the concept of a reality unknown by the Creator of all seen and unseen. In this context, freewill is impossible except for these eternally dead ideas,decisions, and/or walking zombies. They freely decide their future in the present moment....even when they are unknown by the One Who walks with us....(in my analogy at least.) Does this make sense?
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 458 by Stile, posted 05-18-2016 10:27 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 462 by Tangle, posted 05-27-2016 2:46 AM Phat has replied
     Message 469 by Stile, posted 05-30-2016 1:47 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 463 of 1444 (785000)
    05-27-2016 2:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 462 by Tangle
    05-27-2016 2:46 AM


    Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
    Tangle writes:
    It's a mixture of religious fantasy and gibberish.
    yet arguably you would consider anything religious to in fact be fantasy...thus you can be said to be biased. As for the gibberish...you may have a point.
    Tangle writes:
    It seems to me that there's a big difference between knowledge of the future and whether the future has been determined.
    Depends on who is doing the determining.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 462 by Tangle, posted 05-27-2016 2:46 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 464 by Tangle, posted 05-27-2016 3:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 465 by ringo, posted 05-27-2016 12:52 PM Phat has replied

      
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