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Author Topic:   Creation
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 16 of 1482 (782456)
04-23-2016 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
04-23-2016 9:22 AM


Hi jar,

jar writes:

The reality though is that the quote is part of a statement said to happen during a single first day.

That of course is patently false.

Why is it false? And why is it impossible which you seem to believe?

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

This text says they were created in one light period.

When you consider God's definition of a day it is entirely possible.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

A light period is God's definition of a day. Regardless of the duration of that light period.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 9:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 8:03 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 17 of 1482 (782457)
04-23-2016 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by New Cat's Eye
04-23-2016 10:29 AM


Hi Cat,

Cat Sci writes:

Its a singular beginning, since they were both created in it, they were created at the same moment. It does not say that the heaven and the earth were created in beginnings.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

A creation event that took place during a light period which is God's definition of day. At any point in that light period the heavens could have began to exist. Also at any point in that light period the earth could have began to exist as that light period is when both began to exist.

Cat Sci writes:

Those are not beginnings. The earth was created in the beginning, growing events are another thing.

No, but none of those events have taken place in a very long duration.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33906
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 18 of 1482 (782458)
04-23-2016 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ICANT
04-23-2016 6:09 PM


ICANT writes:

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

This text says they were created in one light period.

When you consider God's definition of a day it is entirely possible.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

A light period is God's definition of a day. Regardless of the duration of that light period.

Nonsense, a light period is defined as an evening and a morning. The writers (and God played no part in writing the myth) defined it as a day.

The truth and reality though is that the writers were simply ignorant had did not even understand the basics of what caused night and day.

The text says they were created between the evening and the morning of the first day.

Only by once again dishonestly quote mining the text and taking lines out of context can you support your assertion.

And even if your assertion was true it is simply worthless data. As I pointed out the Bible provides us NO information of value where science actually can. Science can tell us times and duration and not utterly worthless imaginings like one light period.

Edited by jar, : gotta make that preview button bigger


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 6:09 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 9:07 PM jar has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 19 of 1482 (782459)
04-23-2016 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Diomedes
04-23-2016 12:10 PM


Hi Diomedes
Diomedes writes:

If you look at the first few versus of Genesis, you can see that it is inconsistent with the scientific views:

But the light period the heavens and the earth began to exist in took place prior to Genesis 1:2 according to the text.

There are only 2 creation events after Genesis 1:1.

Genesis 1:20 when God created a great fish.
Genesis 1:27 when God created mankind, male and female.

Nothing else in Genesis 1:2 through 1:30 was created.

Diomedes writes:

It specifically states that both the earth along with it's water surface was created in a realm of 'darkness'; subsequent to that, light came into being.

The text says no such thing.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This verse says the earth existed. Not that it was created.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This verse says the earth was created.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

This verse states the earth was created in a light period not a period of darkness.

Diomedes writes:

That is totally backwards from the scientific view of how the universe formed.

I don't know what Bible you use but my KJV as I have quoted to you above says the earth was created in a light period which is God's definition of day. Genesis 1:5

So no the Bible and Science agree that the universe and the earth began to exist in a light period.

The CMB is the leftovers of a light period from a power source much more powerful than all the suns in the universe.

Diomedes writes:

So in essence, light had to exist prior to the earth. The bible states the reverse.

Yes light had to exist prior to the earth.

The Bible in Genesis 2:4 agrees that the earth began to exist in a period of light.

You as most posters around here have a weird concept of what the Bible actually says. Everyone seems to be stuck on the concept that the YEC'S put forth.

Try reading the actual text.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Diomedes, posted 04-23-2016 12:10 PM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Diomedes, posted 04-24-2016 12:35 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 33 by kbertsche, posted 04-24-2016 1:26 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 04-24-2016 4:01 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 20 of 1482 (782460)
04-23-2016 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
04-23-2016 8:03 PM


Hi jar,

jar writes:

Science can tell us times and duration and not utterly worthless imaginings like one light period.

How many light periods was there in the first billion years of the existence of the universe?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 8:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 9:31 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 21 of 1482 (782461)
04-23-2016 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Adequate
04-23-2016 3:51 PM


Hi Dr,

Dr writes:

Well, people have always read the Bible as meaning they were created at the same moment.

Not all people just the loudest.

Dr writes:

It would make one wonder why God couldn't write the Bible so as to make himself understood; and what else in the Bible we are currently misreading for want of knowing the facts.

The facts have been recorded for over 2800 years. They have not changed. It is not God's fault if people are so easily led astray. After all they have been doing stupid things every since the man formed from the dust of the ground ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2016 3:51 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2016 11:14 PM ICANT has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33906
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 22 of 1482 (782462)
04-23-2016 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICANT
04-23-2016 9:07 PM


ICANT writes:

How many light periods was there in the first billion years of the existence of the universe?

Now that again is a really stupid, stupid, stupid question; as silly as the concept of God's light period; something of no worth, value or meaning?

There is no such thing as a light period unless referenced to a particular location, which if you had ever read the Bible you would understand since a primary job of the local rabbi was to determine the local light period.

Your question is a classic example of the utter worthlessness of "Biblical Science".


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 9:07 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 9:39 PM jar has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 23 of 1482 (782463)
04-23-2016 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Pressie
04-22-2016 5:41 AM


Hi Pressie,

Presssie writes:

Science doesn't have anything to say about any form of religious creation.

Its just that the facts recorded in the Bible has been proven by Science.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Pressie, posted 04-22-2016 5:41 AM Pressie has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 24 of 1482 (782464)
04-23-2016 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
04-23-2016 9:31 PM


Hi jar,

jar writes:

Your question is a classic example of the utter worthlessness of "Biblical Science".

I take your answer to mean you don't have a clue.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 9:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 10:13 PM ICANT has seen this message

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33906
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 25 of 1482 (782465)
04-23-2016 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ICANT
04-23-2016 9:39 PM


what gets created in Genesis 1
ICANT writes:

How many light periods was there in the first billion years of the existence of the universe?

You are free to take my answer any fool way you want but actually I do have a clue and in fact did more than offer a clue, I explained why your question was really, really, really stupid.

But neither the younger Genesis 1 story or the much earlier Genesis 2&3 stories are about creation. Creation, like the God characters in the fables is simply a plot device. The many things in each of the stories that are simply false should be enough to let anyone realize they were fables and not to be taken as true or factual.

For example, in Genesis 1 there is the bit about the two great lights, one to rule the day and the other to rule the night. Now granted, the authors were ignorant of what made the "light" and so thought the moon actually was a light, but even as ignorant as they were they knew that the moon did not follow the pattern of a lightened day and a darkened night. It did not rule the night and was often absent from the night.

The moon sometimes showed up during the day, sometimes did not show up during either night or day and changed shape, unlike the sun.

Genesis 1 is NOT about God or Creation of the Heavens and the Earth but rather about the creation of ritual. The only creation found in Genesis 1 is the creation of the sacred week and the concept of the Sabbath.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 9:39 PM ICANT has seen this message

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 26 of 1482 (782466)
04-23-2016 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ICANT
04-23-2016 9:28 PM


Not all people just the loudest.

Please show me one person, however quiet and self-effacing, who, before we knew the age of the universe and the age of the Earth, read "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth", and interpreted it as meaning that nine billion years passed before the Earth existed.

It is not God's fault if people are so easily led astray.

It would be if he was doing the leading, by writing stuff which was guaranteed (as an omniscient being would have known) to leave absolutely everyone with a false impression.

It is not, after all, a concept that is difficult to communicate. If I write "There were about nine billion years between the earliest time we know of, and the origin of the Earth", many people might be so far "led astray" as to not believe me; but very few people would be puzzled over what I mean. If I can make myself clear, an omnipotent God could have done so if he pleased.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 9:28 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 1482 (782470)
04-24-2016 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
04-22-2016 3:13 AM



The Bible does not say when the beginning was, just that it was. There is no verse in the Bible that says when the beginning was.

Thus the Bible and science agrees that the universe began to exist and it is old.

This argument is ridiculous and would easily be shot down in a high school debate. The most that can be drawn from the first sentences is that the Bible does not disagree with science. Science says that the universe is old, and the Bible, saying nothing about whether the universe is young or old, does not disagree.

Genesis is also silent about the correct interpretation of the 2nd amendment, the existence of Big foot, and about the content of the world's best omelet. If science manages to uncover one or another answer to those question, would you then claim that Genesis is in agreement with science because it does not give a contrary answer? Or would that be ridiculous.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 04-22-2016 3:13 AM ICANT has seen this message

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12792
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 28 of 1482 (782475)
04-24-2016 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
04-23-2016 10:13 PM


Re: what gets created in Genesis 1
jar writes:

Now that again is a really stupid, stupid, stupid question; as silly as the concept of God's light period; something of no worth, value or meaning?
...
You are free to take my answer any fool way you want but actually I do have a clue and in fact did more than offer a clue, I explained why your question was really, really, really stupid.

I'm not going to allow this kind of personal critical language. This will be the last warning.

Please, no replies to this message.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 332 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 29 of 1482 (782476)
04-24-2016 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
04-22-2016 3:13 AM


Immutable word of God
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This verse tells us that "In the beginning" is when the heaven and the earth was created.

The original text is

quote:
א  בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

I have no clue what it really says but some have interpreted this to say “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” However, my Good News Bible interprets it as saying “In the beginning, when God created the universe,” and then there is a footnote that says “In the beginning...the universe; or in the beginning God created the universe; or When God began to create the universe.”

Why is the King James version more valid than any other interpretation and how can we discuss the nuance of Moses' story of creation without the original language of the text? I wonder if in a 1000 yrs it won't be interpreted as saying '14.5 Billion yrs ago there was a big bang'.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 04-22-2016 3:13 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 04-24-2016 4:50 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33906
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 30 of 1482 (782477)
04-24-2016 9:57 AM


On why "God's light period" is a worthless content free concept.
ICANT has claimed that God defined a "Light Period" as when there was light. (actually that is not what the Genesis 1 story says, in that fable the god character calls the light period "day" and the dark period as "night" and never defines a light period.

ICANT writes:

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

A light period is God's definition of a day. Regardless of the duration of that light period.

In the fable it is the story teller who define a day as the evening and the morning; note the lower case showing duration and generality as opposed to the upper case "Day" that signifies a personal name.

But as ICANT rightly points out there is no duration defined. A light period on some spot on the earth would be approximately 12 hours while a light period on some spot on the moon would be approximately 14 earth days and a light period on a spot on Mercury would have a light period of about 59 Earth days.

Since "God's light period" is a term without any real meaning independent of a particular location asking "How many light periods was there in the first billion years of the existence of the universe?" as ICANT did in Message 20 is simply a really, really, really silly question with no possible answer and with no informational content.

Genesis 1 is NOT about creation of the universe but rather creation of a ritual.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ICANT, posted 04-24-2016 10:03 PM jar has replied

  
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