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Author Topic:   Creation
Diomedes
Member (Idle past 88 days)
Posts: 973
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 31 of 1482 (782478)
04-24-2016 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ICANT
04-23-2016 8:59 PM


But the light period the heavens and the earth began to exist in took place prior to Genesis 1:2 according to the text.

What exactly is a 'light period'? I think you are making up phrases that sound scientific to try to pigeon hole the bible statements into something that is tap dancing around what the original meaning actually was. Light period, light year. Kind of easy to see the attempt there.

Genesis 1:20 when God created a great fish.
Genesis 1:27 when God created mankind, male and female.

ICANT, I just quoted to you the verse specifically stating that 'In the beginning, god CREATED the heavens and the earth. The word 'created' is right there.

Here is the link I referenced which indicates this came from a King James Bible version:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&ve...

Did you by chance write your own bible or something? Because the versus you quote are totally inconsistent with any documentation I find on the internet regarding the Genesis myth.

You as most posters around here have a weird concept of what the Bible actually says. Everyone seems to be stuck on the concept that the YEC'S put forth.

Try reading the actual text.

See previous statement. I think my reading comprehension skills are just fine. The reason I can come to a specific conclusion regarding what I am reading is because I am not trying to re-invent what the text I am reading actually says in a vain attempt to try to correlate it with current scientific theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 8:59 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 1370 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 32 of 1482 (782479)
04-24-2016 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by New Cat's Eye
04-23-2016 10:29 AM


The heavens and the earth
CatSci writes:

Its a singular beginning, since they were both created in it, they were created at the same moment. It does not say that the heaven and the earth were created in beginnings.


It should be noted that the phrase "the heavens and the earth" (Heb: et ha-shamayyim w-et ha-'aretz) is a Hebrew idiom, meaning "everything". A good translation of Gen 1:1 would thus be, "in the beginning, God created everything" or "in the beginning, God created the universe".

(This figure of speech is usually called a "merism". Two extremes are mentioned, with the implication that everything in between is included as well. Thus "heavens and earth" means "everything"; "east and west" means "everywhere".)


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-23-2016 10:29 AM New Cat's Eye has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 04-24-2016 10:52 PM kbertsche has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 1370 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 33 of 1482 (782480)
04-24-2016 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ICANT
04-23-2016 8:59 PM


ICANT writes:

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

This verse states the earth was created in a light period not a period of darkness.

...

So no the Bible and Science agree that the universe and the earth began to exist in a light period.

The CMB is the leftovers of a light period from a power source much more powerful than all the suns in the universe.

...
The Bible in Genesis 2:4 agrees that the earth began to exist in a period of light.


ICANT, I think it pushes the text a bit too far to insist that the universe began "in a light period". The phrase "in the day that x" is an idiom, simply meaning "when". (And most modern translations translate Gen 2:4 in this way.)

I don't see any inconsistency with science on this point, but I don't see a confirmation, either.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 8:59 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2016 12:10 AM kbertsche has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 1482 (782484)
04-24-2016 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ICANT
04-23-2016 8:59 PM


It specifically states that both the earth along with it's water surface was created in a realm of 'darkness'; subsequent to that, light came into being.

The text says no such thing.

You are right about that in some part, but being no correction true to the text can save your argument. What the text does say is that the earth existed prior to the creation of light. Despite the fact that the creation of the earth is not described, it is quite clear that the description of the earth and its waters existing before the creation of light as told in Genesis is not consistent with science. At least not if you want to insist on a very particular definition of 'created' to mean formed for the very first time.

In actuality, science tells us that there were first and second generation stars that were born, that shone, and then died in tremendous super nova explosions well before (billions of years prior) there was any solid material available to create this solar system. So the text does not agree with science. And the problem is not merely the duration, but the order of events.

Similarly the events of day four as per Genesis are not in the order given given by science relative to the creation of the earth. Nor is the sky a vault or dome over the earth and there is no vault that separates water above from water below. The description of the vault may be poetic licence, put not the order of creation.

In addition the order given for the creation of life on earth in days 5 and 6 is not in agreement with science.

These things are all true regardless of the length or definition of a day or a "light period".

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 8:59 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2016 12:42 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 49 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2016 9:57 PM NoNukes has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 35 of 1482 (782486)
04-24-2016 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Dogmafood
04-24-2016 9:40 AM


Re: Immutable word of God
Hi ProtoTypical

ProtoTypical writes:

quote:
א בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

Reading the Hebrew from right to left...
The first word (prep) is translated 'In'
The second word (noun) is a compound word translated 'the beginning'
The third word is a kal perfect verb being the completed action of the subject of the verb and is translated 'created' which is a completed job nothing left to do to make the creation perfect.
The fourth word is a noun the subject of the verb and translated 'God'
The fifth word is a sign of the direct object and is not translated.
The sixth word is a dual noun and is the direct object of the verb mistranslated as 'heaven' and should have been 'heavens'.
The seventh word is a sign of the direct object with the conjunction 'and' added. The sign of the direct object is not translated but the conjunction is translated 'and'.
The eighth word is a singular noun a direct object of the verb and is translated earth.

I hope that clarifies what the Hebrew actually says.

Since the writer used a verb that is kal perfect the universe and earth was a completed job. Nothing that took place in Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 1:31 is not part of the original creation event.

ProtoTypical writes:

Why is the King James version more valid than any other interpretation and how can we discuss the nuance of Moses' story of creation without the original language of the text?

The KJV is the best English translation we have. Is it perfect? No you don't have to look no further than Genesis 1:5 to find a mistranslation as the translators translated the Hebrew Cardinal number 'one' as an Ordinal number 'first'

But I am just as comfortable using the Hebrew text as I am the English.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Dogmafood, posted 04-24-2016 9:40 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Dogmafood, posted 04-26-2016 8:21 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 36 of 1482 (782492)
04-24-2016 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Adequate
04-23-2016 11:14 PM


Hi Dr

Dr writes:

Please show me one person, however quiet and self-effacing, who, before we knew the age of the universe and the age of the Earth, read "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth", and interpreted it as meaning that nine billion years passed before the Earth existed.

If memory serves me correctly it was not until the 50's that Science decided the Universe was older than the earth.

In October of 1949 I spoke at a prayer meeting in my church and discussed the fact that there was no way to determine when the beginning was or the creation of the earth. The universe being created first and then the earth in the universe. I quoted the same scriptures at that time that I have quoted in this thread.

Did I know how old the universe or earth were? No and I did not care all I did know was that they were very old.

After my little talk about the creation of the universe and mankind I was not allowed to speak in that church again until 2006.

My belief has not changed from my belief that the universe and earth are very old. In fact I believe Science will find that the universe and earth are much older than mankind believes they are today.

Dr writes:

It would be if he was doing the leading, by writing stuff which was guaranteed (as an omniscient being would have known) to leave absolutely everyone with a false impression.

Everyone has not been led astray.

The man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God by choosing to do so, as he had free will to obey or disobey.

Mankind today still has that free will and can choose to believe anything their little minds can dream up.

Dr writes:

It is not, after all, a concept that is difficult to communicate. If I write "There were about nine billion years between the earliest time we know of, and the origin of the Earth", many people might be so far "led astray" as to not believe me; but very few people would be puzzled over what I mean. If I can make myself clear, an omnipotent God could have done so if he pleased.

And what if 10 years from now Science discovers that the Universe is not 13.55 billion years but 27.3 billion years old. Then your statement would be incorrect unless the earth age changed the same amount.

Yet the Bible would still be correct as it says they were created in 'the beginning'.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2016 11:14 PM Dr Adequate has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 37 of 1482 (782493)
04-24-2016 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
04-24-2016 9:57 AM


Re: On why "God's light period" is a worthless content free concept.
Hi jar,

jar writes:

ICANT has claimed that God defined a "Light Period" as when there was light. (actually that is not what the Genesis 1 story says, in that fable the god character calls the light period "day" and the dark period as "night" and never defines a light period.

quote:

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Day = light therefore light = day.
Day does not = darkness.
Darkness = night.

Therefore a period of light regardless of the duration not intrupted by a period of darkness regardless of the duration of said darkness = a light period.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 04-24-2016 9:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 04-25-2016 8:29 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 38 of 1482 (782494)
04-24-2016 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Diomedes
04-24-2016 12:35 PM


Hi Diomedes,

Diomedes writes:

What exactly is a 'light period'?

A duration of light that is not interrupted by a period of darkness.

Diomedes writes:

ICANT, I just quoted to you the verse specifically stating that 'In the beginning, god CREATED the heavens and the earth. The word 'created' is right there.

Message 19

ICANT writes:

But the light period the heavens and the earth began to exist in took place prior to Genesis 1:2 according to the text.

There are only 2 creation events after Genesis 1:1.

Genesis 1:20 when God created a great fish.
Genesis 1:27 when God created mankind, male and female.

Nothing else in Genesis 1:2 through 1:30 was created.

You need to read my post.

I stated there was 2 creation events after Genesis 1:1 and gave the verses in which something was created.

There are only 3 creation events in the Bible where God is the subject of the verb, and they are listed above.

There were no other creation events in Genesis.

Diomedes writes:

Did you by chance write your own bible or something?

I use the King James version or the Hebrew text your choice.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Diomedes, posted 04-24-2016 12:35 PM Diomedes has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 39 of 1482 (782495)
04-24-2016 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by kbertsche
04-24-2016 1:15 PM


Re: The heavens and the earth
Hi kbertsche

kbertsche writes:

"the heavens and the earth" (Heb: et ha-shamayyim w-et ha-'aretz) is a Hebrew idiom, meaning "everything".

I can not find "the heavens and the earth" listed as an idiom anywhere in any of my Hebrew grammar books.

Could you tell me where I can find that reference?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by kbertsche, posted 04-24-2016 1:15 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by kbertsche, posted 04-26-2016 1:33 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 40 of 1482 (782496)
04-25-2016 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by kbertsche
04-24-2016 1:26 PM


Hi kbertsche

kbertsche writes:

ICANT, I think it pushes the text a bit too far to insist that the universe began "in a light period". The phrase "in the day that x" is an idiom, simply meaning "when". (And most modern translations translate Gen 2:4 in this way.)

I can not find any listing in ancient Hebrew of 'in the day' being an idiom. The first idiom I find listed is in Genesis 4:6.

Do you think the universe began in total darkness?

Does the Bible say God called the light day? Genesis 1:5
Does the Bible say God called the darkness night? Genesis 1:5

Light = day = a duration of light, that is not interrupted by night as the day will end with the darkness of night.

Therefore the Hebrew noun in Genesis 2:4 translated day would be a duration of light.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by kbertsche, posted 04-24-2016 1:26 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 04-25-2016 2:55 PM ICANT has taken no action
 Message 55 by kbertsche, posted 04-26-2016 2:10 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 41 of 1482 (782497)
04-25-2016 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by NoNukes
04-24-2016 4:01 PM


Hi NoNukes

NoNukes writes:

What the text does say is that the earth existed prior to the creation of light.

Where does the text say that?

NoNukes writes:

Despite the fact that the creation of the earth is not described,

There are a lot of facts given about the day in which the universe and earth began to exist.

You can find the generations (history) of the heavens and of the earth recorded following Genesis 2:4 -4:24

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 04-24-2016 4:01 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 04-25-2016 2:51 PM ICANT has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 42 of 1482 (782504)
04-25-2016 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ICANT
04-24-2016 10:03 PM


Re: On why "God's light period" is a worthless content free concept.
ICANT writes:

Day = light therefore light = day.

But that is not what the story says. The story says that an evening and a morning = a day.

Light is named Day. The Dark was named Night. but an evening and a morning was a day.

ICANT writes:

Therefore a period of light regardless of the duration not intrupted by a period of darkness regardless of the duration of said darkness = a light period.

But that is not what the story says. It says a period of light not interrupted by darkness is named Day.

Your definition really is worthless. How long is a light period? As long as it lasts. Wooppdy Do!

Look at the verse you quoted.

quote:
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And you are still taking stuff out of context, quote mining, perverting the Bible.

By the way, you do know that the CMB was not discovered by its light but by its noise. The CMB is a period of static. No light period!

For there to actually be a "light period" there has to be a delineation, something that sets some limit.

If you want to claim that the Earth was made during a period of light then of course, since the Earth is a body that revolves around the Sun then yes it was created when there was light.

BUT that is only so superficially true for the heavens (the authors of Genesis 1 had no concept of universe comparable to our concept of universe) as to again be worthless. They did not know or understand that stars were just like the Sun or even that light was produced by the sun. That's why they made the error of thinking that the moon was a light.

By the time the Earth was created the light from the Big Bang was long gone, faded to the current CMB. The Earth was not created in the light from the Big Bang and in fact most of the heavens was created after the light from the Big Bang was long gone. And what we see of the heavens is the light that those stars produce.

No, there is no science in Genesis 1 and the only thing created in Genesis 1 is ritual.

Edited by jar, : left out two words and appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ICANT, posted 04-24-2016 10:03 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2016 6:45 PM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 1482 (782519)
04-25-2016 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ICANT
04-25-2016 12:42 AM


ICANT writes:

Nonukes writes:

What the text does say is that the earth existed prior to the creation of light.

Where does the text say that?

Verses 1 and 2. Verse 1 describes a formless earth with God hovering over the waters, and then verse 2 tells us that God then created light and saw that it was good.

Can I assume that you have no issues with the rest of my post?

Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2016 12:42 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2016 8:04 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 1482 (782520)
04-25-2016 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ICANT
04-25-2016 12:10 AM


Does the Bible say God called the light day? Genesis 1:5
Does the Bible say God called the darkness night? Genesis 1:5

And does the text not then say that evening and morning were the first day? Clearly there is something strange going on about the definition.

Do you yourself not distinguish between night and day. Are your days 24 hours or something less than 12 hours during the winter?

It is pretty clear that the term day is used in at least two ways in Genesis just as we use it that way today. Why pretend otherwise?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2016 12:10 AM ICANT has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 45 of 1482 (782538)
04-25-2016 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
04-25-2016 8:29 AM


Re: On why "God's light period" is a worthless content free concept.
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Light is named Day. The Dark was named Night. but an evening and a morning was a day.

And that day would be composed of what?

jar writes:

But that is not what the story says. It says a period of light not interrupted by darkness is named Day.

So a period of light equals a Day.

That means the Day in Genesis 2:4 is a period of light in which the heavens and the earth were created.

jar writes:

For there to actually be a "light period" there has to be a delineation, something that sets some limit.

Do you mean like a start of the light period and a end of the light period?

jar writes:

If you want to claim that the Earth was made during a period of light then of course, since the Earth is a body that revolves around the Sun then yes it was created when there was light.

But according to YEC'S and some who have posted in this thread the sun did not exist until the fourth day.

But since the sun and moon is part of the heavens they were created during the day the heavens and the earth were created.

jar writes:

No, there is no science in Genesis 1 and the only thing created in Genesis 1 is ritual.

You are welcome to your opinion and if you are right or wrong we will know which in the future.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 04-25-2016 8:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 04-25-2016 7:01 PM ICANT has replied

  
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