Creation

No, a period of light does not equal a day, sorry but that was not true when the Genesis 1 story was written and is not true even today. A day is composed of a light and dark period according to the story.

ICANT writes: But according to YEC'S and some who have posted in this thread the sun did not exist until the fourth day. But since the sun and moon is part of the heavens they were created during the day the heavens and the earth were created.

According to Genesis 1 the Sun and Moon were not created until day four and were not created during that first day. It has nothing to do with YECs but rather what the story says.

The authors were too ignorant to know that the sun and moon were part of the heavens just as they were ignorant of what caused light.

But we can know even now that there is no science in Genesis 1 and the only thing created in Genesis 1 is ritual. We can read what was written and test it against reality.

Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes: Verses 1 and 2. Verse 1 describes a formless earth with God hovering over the waters, and then verse 2 tells us that God then created light and saw that it was good.

Genesis 1 does not describe a formless earth.

In Message 35 I gave the Hebrew text for Genesis 1:1 with explanation of each word.

The verb which is the third word is a kal perfect verb.
Biblical Hebrew had perfect verbs which was completed action and imperfect which is ongoing action.
There are no other kind of verbs in Biblical Hebrew.

Therefore the subject of the verb (God) created (complete action) the heavens (direct object of the verb) and the earth (direct object of the verb). This event took place in the beginning whenever that was.

Genesis 1:1 is a complete declarative statement.
The only verse in the Hebrew text that is tied to verse 1 in Genesis 2:4 as it declares to be the history of the DAY God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 begins with a disjunctive conjunction and should have been translated as 'but' instead of 'and'. It was translated as 'but' in the LXX which was the translation into Greek in 300 BC.

God did not create the universe in the condition it is found in Genesis 1:2. If He did there would be no history of the 'DAY' in which God created the heavens and the earth.

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Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

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The Hebrew word translated vain in Isaiah 45:18 is the same Hebrew word translated 'without form' in Genesis 1:2.

So God said through Isaiah that He did not create the mess in Genesis 1:2 in the beginning in Genesis 1:1.

AS TO LIGHT
Genesis 1:3 does not say God created light. God is light and will furnish the light in the New Heaven and the New Earth.

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Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

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NoNukes writes: Can I assume that you have no issues with the rest of my post?

I will revisit your post and comment further.

God Bless,

Therefore the subject of the verb (God) created (complete action) the heavens (direct object of the verb) and the earth (direct object of the verb). This event took place in the beginning whenever that was.

I am not at all concerned with what was created in verse 1 because I don't want to argue about the contents of that verse. Verse 1 is ambiguous enough to support many interpretations. I acknowledge that verse 1 is silent about any ordering. But it does indicate that the earth was created.

My point is that regardless of whether verse one includes an ordering regarding the creation of the earth or not, verse 2 describes the universe before God said let there by light. Even if you want to claim that verse 1 subsumes verse 2, verse two and 3 describe God hovering over the waters and then saying let there be light. So earth first then light is the order. Not according to science.

I see that you claim that Genesis does not describe an earth without form. Sorry, but that's going to be a tough argument for you to make.

Verse 2
"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

Of course we've had these exact identical discussions in several threads now. At some point we might get to the point of showing that science is not exactly as you state either. It may be easier to gain agreement on what the Bible says, but I don't have my hopes up.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Hi NoNukes

NoNukes writes: In actuality, science tells us that there were first and second generation stars that were born, that shone, and then died in tremendous super nova explosions well before (billions of years prior) there was any solid material available to create this solar system. So the text does not agree with science. And the problem is not merely the duration, but the order of events.

I got no problem with stars beginning to exist and then burning out.

And the text does support any of those things being possible.

NoNukes writes: Similarly the events of day four as per Genesis are not in the order given given by science relative to the creation of the earth.

But the events of the forth day are not creation events.

The sun and moon was created in Genesis 1:1 as they were part of the universe. The universe was completed in the beginning, which ended when God created darkness that is found at Genesis 1:2.

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Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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God had to create darkness so what existed prior to His creating darkness?

NoNukes writes: Nor is the sky a vault or dome over the earth and there is no vault that separates water above from water below. The description of the vault may be poetic licence, put not the order of creation.

What do you call the space that exists between the water on the face of the earth and the water in the clouds?

NoNukes writes: In addition the order given for the creation of life on earth in days 5 and 6 is not in agreement with science.

The only life form created on day five was what was called great whales. Actually this was a water creature of some kind that was prepared to swallow Jonah.

The only life forms created on day six was mankind male and female.

All other life forms were simply called forth from the waters after their kind which had already existed. Even the plants came forth from the seeds that were already in the ground.

But actually according to the Bible man was the first life form on earth even preceeding all plants and animals. And yes that does disagree with evolution. But right now we are discussing creation,
Not evolution.

NoNukes writes: These things are all true regardless of the length or definition of a day or a "light period".

According to the Bible all things were created in 6 periods of light and 6 periods of darkness which ended with the seventh day of

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Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

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God ceased creating at the end of the sixth day and will not start creating again until the present earth and universe melt with fervent heat.

God Bless,

Hi jar

jar writes: No, a period of light does not equal a day, sorry but that was not true when the Genesis 1 story was written and is not true even today. A day is composed of a light and dark period according to the story.

Are you saying God was lying when He called the light DAY?

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Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

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jar writes: According to Genesis 1 the Sun and Moon were not created until day four and were not created during that first day. It has nothing to do with YECs but rather what the story says.

Where in Genesis 1 does it say God created the sun and moon? Be specific.

God Bless,

Hi NoNukes

NoNukes writes: My point is that regardless of whether verse one includes an ordering regarding the creation of the earth or not, verse 2 describes the universe before God said let there by light. Even if you want to claim that verse 1 subsumes verse 2, verse two and 3 describe God hovering over the waters and then saying let there be light. So earth first then light is the order. Not according to science.

How many times has the earth been to the point that the sun or moon could not been seen from the surface of the earth.

The last time I know of was when the Chicxulub crater was formed and the earth was engulfed in darkness due to the conditions caused by the impact in which:

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The emission of dust and particles could have covered the entire surface of the Earth for several years, possibly a decade, creating a harsh environment for living things. The shock production of carbon dioxide caused by the destruction of carbonate rocks would have led to a sudden greenhouse effect.[25] Over a longer period, sunlight would have been blocked from reaching the surface of the Earth by the dust particles in the atmosphere, cooling the surface dramatically. Photosynthesis by plants would also have been interrupted, affecting the entire food chain.[26]

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater

So Genesis 1:2 would have just been another of those events where the sun existed but the light did not reach the surface of the earth.

NoNukes writes: I see that you claim that Genesis does not describe an earth without form. Sorry, but that's going to be a tough argument for you to make.

You need to work on your focus a little.

I said Genesis 1:1 does not describe a earth in the condition the earth is in Genesis 1:2.

The universe and earth were perfect in the beginning at Genesis 1:1. The Hebrew language requires a completed universe and earth.

There is a history of the earth created in Genesis 1:1.

Genesis 2:4 declares that the heavens and the earth was created in a day.

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2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

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That means it had to be created in a light period which would be followed by a dark period.

It was dark at Genesis 1:2.

NoNukes writes: Of course we've had these exact identical discussions in several threads now. At some point we might get to the point of showing that science is not exactly as you state either. It may be easier to gain agreement on what the Bible says, but I don't have my hopes up.

I keep thinking you will learn how to read and understand what you are reading.

But you keep letting your assumptions and pre-conceived false beliefs about what the Bible says get in the way.

I thought scientific people followed the facts. Not invent them.

God Bless,

The sun and moon was created in Genesis 1:1 as they were part of the universe. The universe was completed in the beginning, which ended when God created darkness that is found at Genesis 1:2.

You are not addressing the question at all. By your logic, everything was created in Genesis 1:1. And yet no human's existed until day 6. Where does that fit in the order described in Genesis 1:1?

And saying that the universe was created does not mean that everything in the universe was created. There are stars in existence which were created well after the earth was created. So simply saying that the universe was created does not say that the sun and moon existed.

Where do you get the idea that darkness was created in verse 2 anyway ? Nothing in Genesis 2 says any such thing. All that is said is that darkness was in existence. It is light that is said to be created after Genesis 2.

God had to create darkness so what existed prior to His creating darkness?

Do you know what darkness is? Do you think darkness is a thing rather than the absence of something? But more to the point, where is the creation of darkness described or mentioned? What is the textual basis for your completely unscientific statement regarding the nature of darkness. And what about the earth being without form? Was that the case or not?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

But actually according to the Bible man was the first life form on earth even preceeding all plants and animals. And yes that does disagree with evolution. But right now we are discussing creation

Why isn't the creation of man a part of creation?

ICANT writes: I can not find "the heavens and the earth" listed as an idiom anywhere in any of my Hebrew grammar books. Could you tell me where I can find that reference?

Unfortunately, I don't know of a Hebrew (or Greek) grammar that has a very complete list of idioms. If you find one, please let me know!

As you probably know, the classic (and massive) work on biblical figures of speech is E.W. Bullinger's "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible" (https://archive.org/details/figuresofspeechu00bull). But for specific passages it's probably easier to check his "Companion Bible".

You can also look up individual figures of speech in an encyclopedia or Wikipedia. As I mentioned earlier, "heavens and earth" in Gen 1:1 is generally classed as a "merism" (though I think Bullinger classed it as "synecdoche"). Here's what Wikipedia says about merisms:

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Merisms are conspicuous features of Biblical poetry. For example, in Genesis 1:1, when God creates "the heavens and the earth" (KJV), the two parts combine to indicate that God created the whole universe. Similarly, in Psalm 139, the psalmist declares that God knows "my downsitting and mine uprising", indicating that God knows all the psalmist's actions. In addition, Genesis 1:5 uses "evening" and "morning" as a merism for "one day".

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ICANT writes: I can not find any listing in ancient Hebrew of 'in the day' being an idiom. The first idiom I find listed is in Genesis 4:6.

Check Bullinger's works. He starts identifying figures of speech in Gen 1:1. For "in the day" in 2:4, Bullinger has a note in his "Companion Bible" that says "in the day = when". Other study bibles do something similar.

ICANT writes: Does the Bible say God called the light day? Genesis 1:5 Does the Bible say God called the darkness night? Genesis 1:5

As Jar pointed out, these are NAMES (proper nouns). The first three days of Gen 1 involve naming. If we don't distinguish between the proper nouns (names) and the ordinary nouns, we will get confused.

For example, a "day" (lower-case d) contains both morning and evening, both a light and a dark period. The light period is named "Day" (upper-case D). Thus "Day" (the light period) is not the same as "day" (the full day, including more than just "Day"). Likewise, the "firmament" is placed in the heavens to separate the waters above it from the waters below it. This firmament is then named "Heavens". Thus "Heavens" (the firmament) is not the same as "heavens" (which includes more than just the firmament).

How many times has the earth been to the point that the sun or moon could not been seen from the surface of the earth.

I suppose that if I am going to pound on a bad argument, I should acknowledge a good one. God could have been illuminating an earth covered with clouds. A formless and void earth.

he universe and earth were perfect in the beginning at Genesis 1:1. The Hebrew language requires a completed universe and earth.

That's fine. It is not in accordance with science that the universe contained every star and planet at the time of formation of the earth. So what does being complete mean to you. Quite obviously the earth was not finished at the end of Genesis 1:1 or even during the time of Genesis 1:2. So what does 'perfect and complete even mean?

I said Genesis 1:1 does not describe a earth in the condition the earth is in Genesis 1:2.

Okay. But that would be the case because Genesis 1:1 says nothing about the condition of anything in the universe. How is it that you make up things in the absence of any information. You seem to be putting forth that the world was complete in Genesis 1:1, then only partially formed and in fact formless in Genesis 1:2, only to become fully formed, well who knows when. I suppose you are free to fill in such things, but does the Bible actually say those things, or do you make them up because you think science is correct?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

The KJV is the best English translation we have. Is it perfect? No ...

My point was that language evolves and a translation done a thousand yrs after something was written is likely to contain inaccuracies. Science is precise and creation stories are not. It seems to me that comparing the biblical creation story with what science has shown us is like looking for truth in the forecast of your horoscope.

ICANT writes: Are you saying God was lying when He called the light DAY?

No, I am not saying that the god character in the story was lying when he called the Light Day as I have already explained to you several times in this thread. The god character in Genesis 2&3 does lie but this god character does not lie in that statement.

The God character is naming the light Day in the fable. Not defining some light period of a day, but rather when we would call daytime today. As is shown in your very quote an evening and a morning is a day, the period starting as the Night comes on and running through to the next Day. A day is not a period of light but rather a period of dark followed by light.

This is really important since the concept of what makes a day (and then the sacred week) is the real purpose of the myth. The definition of a day beginning with darkness not light and running through the night that on the seventh day the God character takes a break is the creation of the Jewish week and of the Sabbath.

Genesis 1 is the creation myth for the Sabbath and that is all.

Gen 1 writes: 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

The first sun and the moon get mentioned in the story in Gen 1:16. Now if you want to quibble and say that made and create are not synonymous you are free to do so.

But the important part is the fact that a day starts at the coming of darkness, of Night, not as we see it beginning with the coming of light; and that the week is divided into seven days (not five or ten or any other number) and that the seventh day is different and a time when no work is done.

But since the only thing that really gets created in Genesis 1 is the ritual, it does not much matter what was done when. All that matters is that there are six work days and one day of rest.

Hi jar

jar writes: The God character is naming the light Day in the fable. Not defining some light period of a day, but rather when we would call daytime today. As is shown in your very quote an evening and a morning is a day, the period starting as the Night comes on and running through to the next Day. A day is not a period of light but rather a period of dark followed by light.

When does evening come?

jar writes: The first sun and the moon get mentioned in the story in Gen 1:16. Now if you want to quibble and say that made and create are not synonymous you are free to do so.

Thanks for your permission.

I will not quibble but I will point out the facts.

Is ברא and עשה the same word?

Both are verbs in the kal stem and both are primitive root words. They do not come from any other word.

The first words definition: create and always has God as the subject of the verb. God is always the one doing the creating.

The second words definition: to do work and it is not limited to God being the subject of the verb.

They are not the same and they do not mean the same thing.

I made a toilet partition today. I did some work on some materials and produced a toilet partition.

I did not create a toilet partition as I would not have had to do any work to produce the toilet partition.

jar writes: But the important part is the fact that a day starts at the coming of darkness, of Night,

What ends at evening to allow the darkness to come?

God Bless,

We do not know when evening comes but we do know that evening begins a day according to the story.

I'm just telling you what the story YOU quoted says.

And if you want to quibble over whether made means created that too is fine. But the story says the sun and the moon were created on the fourth day. Neither was there before then. And the story tells us who did the making so it does not matter whether or not one term is limited to the god character in the story; the story itself tells us who was doing the work.

And that term "work" is what is important in Genesis 1 as I have pointed out to you before in this and other threads.

It does not matter whether the work is making or creating, the whole point of the Genesis 1 fable is that for six days the god character works and on the seventh day the god character kicks back and admires what he did all week.

What is created in Genesis 1 is the ritual Jewish week and the Sacred Sabbath and it is the justification for so many of the laws and traditions that defined being Hebrew.