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Author Topic:   This Bathroom Law Confusion
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 166 (782930)
04-30-2016 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by NoNukes
04-30-2016 8:58 PM


Re: public awareness project
I'm sorry, NN, I really don't know what you are trying to say here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 04-30-2016 8:58 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4553
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 47 of 166 (782931)
04-30-2016 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
04-30-2016 8:33 PM


Re: public awareness project
So it's just a few who are objecting to laws allowing people to choose which restroom to use, just a very few influencing governors of states to come up with contrary laws? Really?
I didn't say anything about a few. I said it is not the majority (of Americans).
Republican-controlled state legislatures and Republican governors are the ones behind the anti-LGBT laws. These are people who think the existence of LGBT people is a violation of their rights and they are intentionally doing everything in their power to make these people's lives miserable. These are the same assholes who a few generations ago were lynching blacks and some of them are killing LGBT people when they get the chance.
So NO, their feelings don't deserve any consideration when the rest of us say we want to give LGBT citizens the same protections from discrimination that the rest of America enjoys.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 04-30-2016 8:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 05-01-2016 4:47 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 48 of 166 (782935)
04-30-2016 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Minnemooseus
04-30-2016 6:35 PM


Re: The Bruce Jenner of 10 years ago
Minnemooseus responds to me:
quote:
So, which bathroom should be used by the Bruce Jenner of 10 years ago?
The one he used.
What makes you think you have a say in it? Surely you aren't implying that trans people don't understand their own lives and are confused about how they are presenting, what society expects of people, and how to navigate in that world, are you? That you get to tell them who they are?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-30-2016 6:35 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-30-2016 11:40 PM Rrhain has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 717 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 49 of 166 (782936)
04-30-2016 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
04-29-2016 3:13 PM


Well, we coudl do what we had been doign for the last 30 years, and ignore it.
This is someone who is a FTM transgender. This person was born a female.. woudl you want to be in a bathroom with them?
Edited by ramoss, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 04-29-2016 3:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(3)
Message 50 of 166 (782937)
04-30-2016 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
04-30-2016 6:52 PM


Re: public awareness project
Faith responds to me:
quote:
I'm not trying to get Brownie points here
Yes, you are. You are trying to claim some sort of moral high ground while still allowing you to retain some ability to shriek, "EWWW!" at someone without getting any flak for it.
quote:
I'm trying to come up with a reasonable solution to a tricky problem.
What is "tricky" about this? Why on earth is it a problem? Are you seriously claiming you are incapable of leaving other people alone?
quote:
You refuse to consider the rights of the majority or of society at large, like all on the Left merely accusing them all of hateful attitudes, and I'm objecting to that.
The Bully's Retort: But I always took the other kids' lunch money! You're bullying me by making me stop!
What is this "right" you are claiming? That's right: The ability to make other people's lives a living hell simply because you don't like them.
You never had that right, Faith. You were tolerated for it before, but no more. It was never acceptable. It was always immoral. And that trans people are finally refusing to put up with it does not mean they are imposing anything on you. A bully does not have the right to take things from other people. Stopping the bully is not an imposition upon the bully. They had no right to do what they were doing in the first place.
I want you to be specific, Faith: What in your life changes because trans people can no longer be arrested for using the correct bathroom?
What specific right have you lost?
quote:
Christian love does not require me to force something on society that is experienced as odious by a majority.
Actually, it does. Christian love requires you to suffer the hatred of others for doing the right thing.
You're making the argument that what is popular is what is ethical and right and loving. Surely you know better than that, Faith.
quote:
What about love for THOSE people? They don't count to you.
They most certainly count. But you're trying to argue that bigots get to define what bigotry is and to stop bigotry is bigoted against the bigots because they no longer get to freely make the lives of other people horrendous.
We have laws for a reason, do we not? Should we allow me to murder you because of my need to kill? Or does your life and your right not to be killed trump my "right" to kill you?
Once again, Faith, I want you to be very specific and clear. If you respond to this post at all, I simply want an answer to this one question:
What specific right have you lost?
quote:
If they have an unreasonable idea about the situation you have to change it but your angry attitude isn't the way to go about that.
On the contrary. My "angry attitude" is the only way things will change. We've seen this every single time. If you could be persuaded by someone softly talking to you for fifteen minutes, then that wasn't your philosophy of life to begin with. The only way rights are won is by fighting for them and forcibly taking them from those who refuse to recognize them.
The only "gentle" thing about this is just exactly how much fight you are going to put up. We literally fought a war to secure the right of black people to be considered merely PEOPLE. And we still haven't managed to come to terms with that. There are still people who don't think that's a good thing.
quote:
What about a concern for a stable cohesive society too?
That is precisely why we are fighting: For a stable society. What you are failing to see, Faith, is that you are the cause of the instability. You are the one who is insisting that some people in the world aren't really people, do not deserve the same respect and dignity as you demand for yourself.
We're back to my question, Faith:
What specific right have you lost because trans people get to pee in peace?
quote:
I don't think this situation threatens
Then why are you trying to find some sort of justification to allow you to make another person's life a living hell?
What specific right have you lost because trans people get to pee in peace?
If it isn't at threat, shouldn't you be fighting *for* their rights?
quote:
that but it's felt that way by a lot of people and it should be addressed in a sympathetic way.
We should be sympathetic to murderers? There is a right to kill people and we should think about them before we tell them to stop?
Exactly how do you "sympathetically" tell someone to take their boot off your neck, Faith?
What specific right have you lost because trans people get to pee in peace?
quote:
It also isn't loving to treat people's sins as normal
So why are you so upset at being treated the way you are treating others? Have you not considered the possibility that you are the one sinning? Are you completely incapable of understanding that those who oppose you are just as sincere?
So you are willing to treat those who oppose you as evil incarnate and you have the unmitigated gall to get upset when someone pushes back and decides that you aren't the loving person you claim to be and treats you accordingly?
So what right have you lost, Faith? I really want to know.
You need to drop your strident self-righteousness and get real, Faith. You don't love your neighbor. You hate him. And you think you have the right to destroy them.
If that's wrong, if that is truly a misstatement of your intentions, then spit it out:
What right have you lost, Faith?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 04-30-2016 6:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(4)
Message 51 of 166 (782938)
04-30-2016 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
04-30-2016 8:59 PM


Re: Reality of Politicians
Faith writes:
quote:
all they hear is the rhetoric and namecalling from the Left
If you don't like being identified as a bigot, then stop acting like one.
It really is that simple, Faith.
quote:
instead of a rational explanation of how it's not the big problem they fear it is.
Two problems with that:
1) They have heard it. Trans people have been asking to be treated as human beings for decades. It hasn't worked. What makes you think the next round of, "Please, Sir, could you take your boot off my neck?" is going to work.
2) They literally avoided the explanation. In the various states that have enacted these laws that criminalize going to the bathroom, the lawmakers have purposefully cut off public debate so that they wouldn't have to hear from trans people about how these laws would affect their lives.
So what is your suggestion, Faith? Playing nice didn't work. Trying to talk didn't work. Just keep being literally murdered until people come around and realize that you shouldn't be?
Here's another question I want you answer:
How many people have to die?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 04-30-2016 8:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 166 (782939)
04-30-2016 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Rrhain
04-30-2016 10:52 PM


Re: The Bruce Jenner of 10 years ago
Rrhain, in message 34, also quoted in message 38, writes:
...you use the bathroom that corresponds with your gender identity.
Rrhain, in message 48 writes:
quote:
So, which bathroom should be used by the Bruce Jenner of 10 years ago?
The one he used.
I take from this that you think Bruce Jenner's gender identity was "male" 10 years ago (I presume he was using the male bathroom).
My understanding is that his personal gender identity was already female back then, and thus by your reasoning, should have been using the female bathroom.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Rrhain, posted 04-30-2016 10:52 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Rrhain, posted 05-01-2016 12:24 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(1)
Message 53 of 166 (782940)
05-01-2016 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Minnemooseus
04-30-2016 11:40 PM


Re: The Bruce Jenner of 10 years ago
Minnemooseus responds to me:
quote:
I take from this that you think Bruce Jenner's gender identity was "male" 10 years ago (I presume he was using the male bathroom).
No, you can take from it what I said directly after it:
It wasn't for me to say. Jenner was the one best capable of understanding which bathroom to use and thus the one that was used was the correct one.
I will not be the one to second guess Jenner's choice.
quote:
My understanding is that his personal gender identity was already female back then, and thus by your reasoning, should have been using the female bathroom.
Go back, read my post, and try again.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-30-2016 11:40 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 54 of 166 (782941)
05-01-2016 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
04-29-2016 3:13 PM


I had an incident where one of my officers was assaulted by a trans woman when she was confronted for going in to a female bathroom. The policy, at that time, was that you had to use the restroom of your naturally assigned sex. We wouldn't have even been aware of it but a biological female complained and we had to confront the trans woman to inform her of the policy.
Well, uhhhh, she flipped out and literally physically assaulted one of my officers and was subsequently pepper sprayed and arrested for assault.
Setting aside the issue of the assault, which completely undermined whatever good point she might have had, who's complaint trumps the other? The trans woman who just wants to be treated like the lady or the biological woman who doesn't want men her restroom? Because we cannot accommodate both. One of them is just going to have to deal with it.
Luckily there are laws which dictates how to respond accordingly. And if bad laws surface, like the law in North Carolina which is obviously an attack on gay marriage being passed, then lawful protests are advisable towards pressuring change.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 04-29-2016 3:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 05-01-2016 4:57 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 55 of 166 (782943)
05-01-2016 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Tanypteryx
04-30-2016 9:19 PM


Re: public awareness project
Republican-controlled state legislatures and Republican governors are the ones behind the anti-LGBT laws. These are people who think the existence of LGBT people is a violation of their rights and they are intentionally doing everything in their power to make these people's lives miserable.
As I've been saying, I don't think so. I think it's due to not grasping the reality of the situation, and that dropping your kind of angry rhetoric might be the start to getting a more reasonable response out of them. A governor who insists that you can only use the restroom you are biologically qualified for doesn't understand the actual situation.
These are the same assholes who a few generations ago were lynching blacks and some of them are killing LGBT people when they get the chance.
Demonizing other people's views on the basis of your own moralistic judgment isn't any better when you do it than when your opponents do it. And besides it was Democrats who were lynching blacks.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-30-2016 9:19 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-01-2016 10:29 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 56 of 166 (782944)
05-01-2016 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Hyroglyphx
05-01-2016 3:05 AM


Setting aside the issue of the assault, which completely undermined whatever good point she might have had, who's complaint trumps the other? The trans woman who just wants to be treated like the lady or the biological woman who doesn't want men her restroom? Because we cannot accommodate both. One of them is just going to have to deal with it.
My argument on this thread is that you should use the restroom you feel you fit into best, which in this case would allow the transgender person to use the women's room. I think the laws requiring you be biologically qualified are missing the reality of the situation. Yes some biological men/psychological women are not going to pass easily but they are not really men in the sense the woman was objecting to and that guy is not going to be safe in the men's room. I understand her feelings. I hated it when in rehab they brought in a man, a normal man, not a transgender, to use the toilet in the bathroom where I was taking a shower. I consider THAT to be an outrage, but transgenders in a regular public restroom are a completely different situation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-01-2016 3:05 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 90 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 57 of 166 (782955)
05-01-2016 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
04-30-2016 6:21 PM


Re: public awareness project
Um, those don't sound like clarifications that would help persuade people to your cause, they sound more like provocations that could drive people to further dig in their heels against you.
Really? So if we replace the word 'transgender' with
a) Family
b) Patriot
c) Christian
d) Evangelical
e) Veterans
You would say they all sounded like aggressive provocations?
Did you investigate any of them to see what they did?
Employment | National Center for Transgender Equality
Identity Documents & Privacy | National Center for Transgender Equality
Page not found - OutCare
These groups are specifically designed to help transgendered people and their family but also to advocate within the community to educate people about trans issues. EXACTLY what you were demanding.
You have just proven that your prejudices against transgendered individuals has resulted in you specifically ignoring them doing what it is you are demanding they should have done.
I'm thinking of a nice gentle campaign WHEN THE LAWS THAT SCARE PEOPLE ARE PROPOSED, that would describe the actual situation that they'd be facing

This has been on the internet exactly 1 year today. Again, Transgendered people, and their liberal allies, have been talking about these issues for decades, and these laws since they were first proposed. They aren't secret. You could have read or listened to them at any time.
Three points
1) This was done. If your sources of information didn't pass this to you, they suck
2) There are no new laws being proposed, only slight modifications and interpretations by the courts of existing ones. Such as the Civil Rights Act, 1964
3) The Republicans are the ones proposing new laws and using FEAR to get them passed.

February 2015 - a report that thousands had spoken against the Carolina bill before it was passed.

March 2015, radio discussion

June, 2015 - contains footage of Huckabee and a political ad drumming up fear and misinformation

September 2015

March 2015, viral campaign - already referenced in this thread
It took the recent laws insisting that only your biological sex qualifies you for a restroom which made me aware of the absurd consequences of such a law, and some thinking about exactly what freedom of choice would entail in reality, to lead me to the position I'm defending on this thread.
Transgender folks have been campaigning and trying to get you to understand their issues for decades. All of the information you needed about civil rights and transgender issues was not only available one google search away, but had, in part, been given to you repeatedly here at EvC, sometimes by me.
Transgender people had struggled and complained about people forcing them to use incongruent bathrooms, or denying them service, or denying housing, denying marital rights....and it wasn't until the courts agreed that you noticed? That's nobody's fault but your own. It wasn't until after people put absurd counter laws in place that you realized the problem? That's too late. You have a duty as a voter to be informed before bills get passed. Especially ones where a huge campaign explaining the problems, exactly as you asked for, was mounted - and apparently ignored.
But most people don't have any frame of reference for thinking about these things, and just dumping a whole new social project on them that is strange and feels dangerous is not fair to them.
As I said, I get it. But it's not a 'new' social project. Transgender people campaigned and mostly failed to get rights through the 60s and70s. They did a little better through the 80s, but the real turning point came around 1998. Since then they have been scoring regular victories in securing rights and protections. All part of US culture, this trend has been visible in TV, film, music to name but a few. There are whole websites dedicated to discussing these issues, and entire groups dedicated to advocating and informing people of these issues.
If you'd stop complaining about how much of a surprise this long slow struggle for basic decency has come to you and others, and instead spent the time informing yourself of things by listening to transgendered people rather than pundits talking about transgendered people - you'd be less frightened.
We've been telling the right the tide is changing. We showed you graphs showing you the attitude changes in American attitudes. You complained the tide was changing. Everyone on your side has been complaining of this 'moral slide'. You knew it was happening. And we were telling you all about it, and why it was and giving you our perspective.
You don't get to blame us if you didn't choose to listen, and preferred instead to focus on some mean words some people called *you*.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 04-30-2016 6:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 05-01-2016 12:07 PM Modulous has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4553
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(5)
Message 58 of 166 (782956)
05-01-2016 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
05-01-2016 4:47 AM


Re: public awareness project
And besides it was Democrats who were lynching blacks.
And they all switched parties and became Republicans.
I'm done.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 05-01-2016 4:47 AM Faith has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 942 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(2)
Message 59 of 166 (782961)
05-01-2016 11:53 AM


One Plausible Solution
Perhaps all public restrooms should be mandated to consist of the following:
One working toilet
One working sink
Toilet paper
A hand drier or paper product for drying hands
A waste basket
A lidded depository for hygiene products
A lockable door
All unisex and all within a 100% enclosed space
Problem solved. Sure there will be opposition, the most important from an economic standpoint due to cost of implementation which is why such a mandate should allow a decade for compliance.
Beyond that their will be opposition from other sources, which I suspect will not garner much support:
The urinal lobby
The urinal cake lobby
The lobby that supports making other lives miserable for no discernible reason (likely the greatest source of remaining opposition)
The closeted gay Republican/religious leader lobby, which often solicits anonymous casual encounters in public restrooms right after that 'family values' speech.
Until full implementation, just let everyone use the restroom of the gender they identify with.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 166 (782963)
05-01-2016 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Modulous
05-01-2016 10:21 AM


Re: public awareness project
At least I found out one thing from your videos: it IS men posing as transgender to get at little girls that they are worried about. I'm not clear about other objections.
Sorry my opinion is too little too late. Best I could do for you.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Modulous, posted 05-01-2016 10:21 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Modulous, posted 05-03-2016 8:41 AM Faith has not replied

  
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