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Author Topic:   Creation
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 121 of 1482 (783011)
05-02-2016 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by ICANT
05-02-2016 1:32 AM


Re: Chronology?
ICANT writes:
But for Rashi to be correct the verb would have to be a noun or אלהיס 'God' would have to follow בראשית, 'In the beginning'.
For "of God" to be in the sentence אלהיס would have to be in the construct. The construct requires a noun to follow a noun which puts the second noun in the construct state.
I agree with your conclusion. But the first word of the text ("in beginning") is awkward: it doesn't have a definite article. Its form is the same as the construct would be, "in the beginning of..." This is what leads Rashi and others to translate it as "in the beginning of the creation of God", I.e. "In the beginning of God's creation/creating". But this requires changing the vowels on "created" which is written as a Qal verb, not a noun "creation" or participle "creating".
ICANT writes:
Origen lived from 186 to about 254 A.D.
In his great work, De Principiis, at Gen. 1.1: he stated:
quote:
"It is certain that the present firmament is not spoken of
in this verse, nor the present dry land, but rather that heaven
and earth from which this present heaven and earth that we
now see afterwards borrowed their names."
So no Chambers in not the first one to put forth a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
Onkelos put forth the following translation for the beginning of Genesis 1:2.
quote:
"and the earth was laid waste"
The Targum attributed to him must be placed early in the second century B .C.
This translation would suggest he believed the original creation had been laid waste.
As you can see there are others who held a ruin and restoring event between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
Thanks for the information! I didn't realize that the roots of the Gap Theory went back so far.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ICANT, posted 05-02-2016 1:32 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 12:04 PM kbertsche has replied
 Message 138 by ICANT, posted 05-03-2016 12:16 AM kbertsche has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 1482 (783014)
05-02-2016 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by kbertsche
05-02-2016 11:48 AM


Implications of Gap Theory
I can't possibly assess the claims about what the Hebrew says. What matters to me is the theological implications of Gap Theory for the YEC point of view. Is there a post on this thread that explains it that you could point me to, and if not would you or someone else please explain it?
Thanks.
ABE: I'm adding this quite a bit later so hope it gets seen. Of course I know it's an argument for the Old Earth, but I'm thinking of how it affects theological points like death occurring at the Fall and not before, and the reality and timing of the Flood.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by kbertsche, posted 05-02-2016 11:48 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by NoNukes, posted 05-02-2016 1:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 133 by kbertsche, posted 05-02-2016 8:49 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 1482 (783018)
05-02-2016 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
05-02-2016 12:04 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
I don't think there are any posts here that summarize the position very well. ICANT has said the most about the topic, but he seems to dribble out just a little information at a time.
The wikipedia article on the topic seems to have some pretty good information.
Gap creationism - Wikipedia
Gap creationism (also known as ruin-restoration creationism, restoration creationism, or "The Gap Theory") is a form of old Earth creationism that posits that the six-yom creation period, as described in the Book of Genesis, involved six literal 24-hour days (light being "day" and dark "night" as God specified), but that there was a gap of time between two distinct creations in the first and the second verses of Genesis, explaining many scientific observations, including the age of the Earth.
ICANT seems to say that his own views are not of an old earth, but I don't really understand that.
There is plenty written on the web regarding the conflict between YEC beliefs and Gap Creationism. Most of what I've seen from YEC sources are totally dismissive of Gap Creationism as non Biblical and conceding holy ground to science. I have difficulty imagining you feeling any different.
Why the Gap Theory Won't Work | The Institute for Creation Research
quote:
The gap theory is also unsound theologically. The God of Creation is an omnipotent and omniscient God, and is also a God of grace, mercy, and love. The very concept of the geological ages, on the other hand, implies a wasteful and cruel "god," and therefore probably no god at all.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 12:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 1:16 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 1482 (783019)
05-02-2016 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by NoNukes
05-02-2016 1:10 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
I guess you missed my edit:
ABE: I'm adding this quite a bit later so hope it gets seen. Of course I know it's an argument for the Old Earth, but I'm thinking of how it affects theological points like death occurring at the Fall and not before, and the reality and timing of the Flood.
These are the questions that matter most to me and I think most YECs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by NoNukes, posted 05-02-2016 1:10 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 05-02-2016 1:31 PM Faith has replied
 Message 130 by ICANT, posted 05-02-2016 3:21 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 1482 (783022)
05-02-2016 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
05-02-2016 1:16 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
These are the questions that matter most to me and I think most YECs.
Your edit apparently went up while I was posting.
Nonetheless my answer included some indication relevant to your concerns. The sources I pointed to, and in particular the ICR reference also addresses some of those questions in more detail.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 1:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 1:56 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 126 of 1482 (783024)
05-02-2016 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by NoNukes
05-02-2016 1:31 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
Please don't refer me to a link. If you can't explain it clearly then I'll wait for kbertsche.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 05-02-2016 1:31 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 127 of 1482 (783028)
05-02-2016 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by NoNukes
05-02-2016 2:32 AM


Re: Chronology?
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes:
For the purposes of this discussion, I am trying to keep an open mind. I am not making a claim, but instead I am asking you to explain your own claim.
An open mind is the only mind that can learn, so hang on to it.
As far as my claim goes.
My claim is that everything in Genesis 2:4 -4:24 took place in the light period in which the heavens and the earth of Genesis 1:1 began to exist in.
I believe Genesis 4:25 and 26 was added by a redactor or scribe to try and tie Genesis 2:4 through 4:24 to the story in chapter one making it one story instead of the two stories that they are.
But regardless of how it got there if the man formed from the dust of the ground had a son named Seth he would have perished in the day God created the heavens and the earth.
He would have not existed in the lineage of the man created in the image of God in Genesis 1:27. But there was a Seth in the lineage of the man created in the image of God as it is given in Genesis chapter 5.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by NoNukes, posted 05-02-2016 2:32 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 05-02-2016 2:48 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 128 of 1482 (783035)
05-02-2016 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by NoNukes
05-02-2016 3:10 AM


Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes:
Noun's did exist. Your argument was that the name 'noun' did not exist until 1400BC.
My claim was that Moses had people, places, and things.
But Moses knew nothing about a noun or proper noun as the word noun did not exist in his days.
NoNukes writes:
Finally, your particular argument does not address the point the others have made about the usage of the term day.
quote:
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
This is God's definition of day.
Light whether the duration is 1 nanosecond of the duration of 1 trillion years equals 1 day.
A period of light whether it be 1 nanosecond of duration or 1 trillion years of duration that ends in an evening when a period of darkness comes that is called night which has a duration of 1 nanosecond or the duration of 1 trillion years ends with a second light period equals 1 day.
I will try to make this last day description a little shorter.
A light period followed by a dark period that ends with a second light period equals a day.
NoNukes writes:
The modern name for those things is proper noun, and it matters not one wit whether or not Moses was capable or incapable of diagramming a sentence to my satisfaction.
So you will make a language that has been dead for over 2,000 years a modern language.
NoNukes writes:
Beyond that, many sources do identify proper nouns in ancient Hebrew. Perhaps it is time to augment your own library.
I do not mind calling the name of people, places, and things in Biblical Hebrew nouns.
But I can assure you that Moses did not call them nouns.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by NoNukes, posted 05-02-2016 3:10 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 1482 (783036)
05-02-2016 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by ICANT
05-02-2016 2:16 PM


Re: Chronology?
But regardless of how it got there if the man formed from the dust of the ground had a son named Seth he would have perished in the day God created the heavens and the earth.
Whoa, brother. Regardless of how it got there? Your conclusion cuts both ways. Your conclusion would seem to imply that 4:25 and 4:26 cannot be as they appear if your claims are correct. If 4:25-6 are not inserts, then perhaps your interpretation is just incorrect.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ICANT, posted 05-02-2016 2:16 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by ICANT, posted 05-02-2016 3:27 PM NoNukes has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 130 of 1482 (783041)
05-02-2016 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
05-02-2016 1:16 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
Hi Faith,
Faith writes:
ABE: I'm adding this quite a bit later so hope it gets seen. Of course I know it's an argument for the Old Earth, but I'm thinking of how it affects theological points like death occurring at the Fall and not before, and the reality and timing of the Flood.
These are the questions that matter most to me and I think most YECs.
Faith the problem with the YECs version is that the man created in the image of God in Genesis 1:27 on the sixth day after all other life forms was never placed in a garden and was never forbidden from eating any fruit from any tree.
quote:
Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
The man formed from the dust of the ground which was the first life form on earth was placed in a garden and was forbidden from eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
quote:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
This man disobeyed God and ate the fruit and died in the same light period in which the heavens and the earth was created.
So my version of an old earth has death as soon as this man disobeyed God's order.
I have no gap only an extend duration of the first light period in which the heavens and the earth were created as this light period ends with the darkness of Genesis 1:2 and is declared day one at the end of the dark period which ended with the light period of the second day.
The gap hypothesis is that the old earth was inhabited by angels who had fallen.
I have no idea who these fallen angels could be as the Devil still had access to heaven in Job's day. He will be before the throne of God accusing the children of God who are killed during the Great Tribulation period. He will not be cast out of heaven until Jesus comes back to earth to set up His kingdom.
Then there is the day age hypothesis where each of the days in Genesis are billions of years long to come out with an old age to satisfy science.
This is my basic understanding of the gap and day age hypothesis.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 1:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 11:59 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 131 of 1482 (783042)
05-02-2016 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by NoNukes
05-02-2016 2:48 PM


Re: Chronology?
Hi NoNukes
[qsNoNukes]If 4:25-6 are not inserts, then perhaps your interpretation is just incorrect.[/qs]
Quit jumping to conclusions.
I plainly stated that it did not make any difference whether they were inserts or not that if the man formed from the dust of the ground had a son named Seth he would have died in the day the heavens and the earth was created.
That would eliminate that man from having any descendants after Genesis 1:2.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 05-02-2016 2:48 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by NoNukes, posted 05-02-2016 3:57 PM ICANT has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 1482 (783044)
05-02-2016 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by ICANT
05-02-2016 3:27 PM


Re: Chronology?
I plainly stated that it did not make any difference whether they were inserts or not that if the man formed from the dust of the ground had a son named Seth he would have died in the day the heavens and the earth was created.
You are the one jumping the gun. Your statement assumes your own conclusion. And in addition, it would require that all of Seth's descendants would have met the same fate, since nobody could have survived those events. That situation is inconsistent with other Biblical text.
So there is an inconsistency, and I find that indeed it does matter. Other theories do not require that Seth died prior to the day that the heavens and earth were created and thus do not suffer the problems yours suffers.
I did recall what you plainly stated. But I have issues with what you stated because it ignores some important consequences. So stating that perhaps your conclusions are incorrect is a reasonable position for me to take.
I'm going to pursue this Gap Creation thing a bit more offline. Maybe I'll come up with some ideas to exchange with you later.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by ICANT, posted 05-02-2016 3:27 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by ICANT, posted 05-02-2016 10:49 PM NoNukes has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 133 of 1482 (783053)
05-02-2016 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
05-02-2016 12:04 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
Faith writes:
I can't possibly assess the claims about what the Hebrew says. What matters to me is the theological implications of Gap Theory for the YEC point of view. Is there a post on this thread that explains it that you could point me to, and if not would you or someone else please explain it?
Thanks.
ABE: I'm adding this quite a bit later so hope it gets seen. Of course I know it's an argument for the Old Earth, but I'm thinking of how it affects theological points like death occurring at the Fall and not before, and the reality and timing of the Flood.
I'm not sure what the Gap Theory folks thought about the Flood. I suspect that there were a variety of views. Some Gap Theory adherents probably held to a miraculous global flood (but NOT to "flood geology"). Others probably held to a local flood.
The Gap Theory certainly accepts plant and animal death before the Fall. Scripture attributes HUMAN death to the Fall (Rom 5), but the notion that ANIMAL death is also a result of the Fall is an inference which I would dispute.
If you want to investigate these issues further, I suggest looking at the writings of D.G. Barnhouse, M.R.DeHann, Arno Gaebelein, H.A. Ironside, J. Vernon McGee, C.I. Scofield, or C.H. Spurgeon, all of whom held to the Gap Theory.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 12:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 9:08 PM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 9:56 PM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 139 by NoNukes, posted 05-03-2016 12:48 AM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 05-03-2016 11:44 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 134 of 1482 (783054)
05-02-2016 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by kbertsche
05-02-2016 8:49 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
Thanks. Disappointing to find one's heroes in the wrong, as of course I do, on both counts. Alas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by kbertsche, posted 05-02-2016 8:49 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 135 of 1482 (783056)
05-02-2016 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by kbertsche
05-02-2016 8:49 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
Doing a rough research on the theologians you listed I found J Vernon McGee on a video sounding like he was in the process of changing his mind from gap theory to "this new theory" which he doesn't present clearly but is probably something a lot like YEC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5NbHibvKpA He says he was "brought up" in the point of view he defends, meaning gap theory, as many of his generation and earlier no doubt were, as that was the period when evolution was most aggressively challenging theologians who unfortunately -- in my opinion -- capitulated on the age of the Earth at least.
Spurgeon was thoroughly nineteenth century, Scofield, Barnhouse and Ironside died before the YEC people started their work. These are the names I know best, haven't checked out the other two.
I didn't intend to start a discussion about this but since I found the video of McGee I thought you might be interested.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by kbertsche, posted 05-02-2016 8:49 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
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