Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 49 (9181 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: joebialek123
Post Volume: Total: 918,271 Year: 5,528/9,624 Month: 553/323 Week: 50/143 Day: 12/11 Hour: 5/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   This Bathroom Law Confusion
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2603
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


Message 121 of 166 (783172)
05-03-2016 11:15 PM


Maybe even behind all the obvious foul bigotry and stuff there is another underlying issue I think Faith was trying to refer to about a decent modicum of privacy. Frankly I do not like to go into any multi-stall mens room myself. I try to plan my day so I don't have to. But I am not always successful. Ah well. There's other things I'd rather be private about than any sexual abuse. I think George Costanza in the Seinfeld series made a point about that. It's okay - sometimes you just have to deal with it.
The family bathrooms are great for parents with little children...and maybe there might be a courtesy of not allowing one person to use the family facility - not a law, just a courtesy.
Maybe there should be more facilities in general for some kinds of places. Long lines is a CLUE that you owners are being rude for not having more. Single rooms with a key work well, but the cost will make the business have to absorb more cost from their favorite plumbers. Perhaps it would be the camel's straw that kills the business. There is no current answer in this culture that won't fit everyone.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 122 of 166 (783175)
05-04-2016 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
05-03-2016 10:16 PM


We've already discussed those that are believable as women. They don't need a law since they don't raise eyebrows.
The problem is, Faith, there is a law. No, trans people don't need a law but they got one anyway that forces discrimination and subjects people to the most base humiliation.
The whole bathroom controversy stems from the NC law that defines male and female as your ...
"Biological sex. — The physical condition of being male or female, which is stated on a person's birth certificate."
Whether one presents as obvious female, has had the operations or not, the NC law says those "believable as women" (as you call them) are males and are required BY LAW to use only the men's room.
And these folks ...
... are REQUIRED by law to use only the women's room.
Do you understand what the problem is, Faith?
The NC Bathroom Law is NOT intended for any other purpose than to discriminate against trans people because those Republican Christians in the legislature think trans identities are sick, disgusting and against god's purpose. Just like The Gay. The motivation has nothing whatsoever to do with sexual deviants molesting kids or some pervert getting off on watching the opposite sex pee in a public restroom. There are already laws against those.
This is a backlash against losing the gay marriage fight and is their way of continuing the Christian fight against what they see as unholy sexual attitudes in this society. The bathroom laws are Christian fabrications and are purely discriminatory with the intent of being purely discriminatory.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 05-03-2016 10:16 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 123 of 166 (783182)
05-04-2016 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
05-03-2016 10:16 PM


Here's the other thing that isn't brought up in talking about these bathroom laws, Faith.
If one of these fellas (born with the XX chromosome set) walks into your women's room with you, Faith ...
... you have no choice than to accept it. It is the requirement of the law and you have no grounds to object. You going to accept that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 05-03-2016 10:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 05-04-2016 1:33 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1562 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 166 (783186)
05-04-2016 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by AZPaul3
05-04-2016 1:20 AM


I guess I can't expect you to have read the whole thread but all that has been discussed to death already. I have said umpteen jillion times that I'm against the biological definition because it misses the point and the people who are insisting on it aren't recognizing the actual situation. The actual situation being what you are trying to prove to me as if I didn't already know it a million times over.
The fact that I've ALSO said I can understand some of the concerns of the opposition seems to so overshadow what I've said above it's as if I hadn't said it. I can understand the opposing view up to a point but have nevertheless said I think it's based on not recognizing the actuality of the situation. I've also said maybe there are other issues I haven't yet appreciated. It doesn't pay to be too nuanced on a thread does it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by AZPaul3, posted 05-04-2016 1:20 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by AZPaul3, posted 05-04-2016 1:44 AM Faith has seen this message but not replied
 Message 132 by NoNukes, posted 05-05-2016 4:52 PM Faith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 125 of 166 (783187)
05-04-2016 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
05-04-2016 1:33 AM


Sorry, Love. My bad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 05-04-2016 1:33 AM Faith has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 126 of 166 (783198)
05-04-2016 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
05-03-2016 4:48 PM


What about the solution anglagard suggested, of totally private single-person facilities? Which I proposed wouldn't need to completely replace existing facilities but be added to them. Keeping all freaked-out parties from freaking out?
Given the freak-outs that occurred when the government required disabled access AND to serve black people...I can't imagine asking businesses to replumb and re-configure at the cost of thousands because of 'the transgendered' is going to calm things down.
Of course, basically nobody was freaking out a few years ago. Some people with power freaked out and FORCED transgender women to use the men's toilet and threatened transgendered people's jobs and liberty to get their way.
but even if laws get passed favoring transgenders I don't see how the freaked-out opponents are going to be silenced by that,
The laws are not to silence the crazies.
The laws are to protect the sane from the crazies
My thinking there shouldn't be a problem isn't going to stop them from freaking out and your opinion isn't going to stop them either.
So why don't we just explain why they don't need to freak out or wait for the people that won't change to die off? Like we did with the racists? I guess some people still freak out about interracial marriage, but so what? We criticize them and move on. It's only a problem when those people have power and use their power to further their racist views....
By the way, if it's a medical problem, how about curing it instead of indulging it?
We do treat it, sometimes even curing it. Apparently this freaks people out.
quote:
Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID) is the formal diagnosis used by psychologists and physicians to describe people who experience significant dysphoria (distress) with the sex and gender they were assigned at birth. Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth, may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains, or prenatal exposure to hormones.[1]...
The current main psychiatric approaches to treatment for persons diagnosed with GID are psychotherapy or to support the individual's preferred gender through hormone therapy, gender expression and role, or surgery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 05-03-2016 4:48 PM Faith has not replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 161 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(8)
Message 127 of 166 (783209)
05-04-2016 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Faith
05-03-2016 5:43 PM


Faith writes:
If that was true there would be no need for this discussion or for anybody getting freaked out when they see a man in women's clothing in the women's room because that would not occur. But it does, and THAT's the situation we're trying to address.
We're addressing some people getting freaked out?
Then the answer is for those people to calm down and deal with their own issues.
The answer is NOT to accommodate these loony's by creating actual laws that cause a lot more issues than they solve. All for the sake of placating a handful of people who can't control themselves?
The people getting freaked out simply need to learn how to be a normal, mature, functioning adult.
There's classes for that, if they need help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Faith, posted 05-03-2016 5:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 128 of 166 (783436)
05-05-2016 12:35 PM


One of the buildings I work in has three employee washrooms: one male, one female and one with both symbols on the door. I call it "Undecided".

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 05-05-2016 12:46 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 130 by subbie, posted 05-05-2016 2:56 PM ringo has replied
 Message 131 by AZPaul3, posted 05-05-2016 3:55 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(4)
Message 129 of 166 (783438)
05-05-2016 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by ringo
05-05-2016 12:35 PM


Maybe Ambisextrous?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 05-05-2016 12:35 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1372 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 130 of 166 (783480)
05-05-2016 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by ringo
05-05-2016 12:35 PM


I'd call it Plessy v. Ferguson.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 05-05-2016 12:35 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 05-06-2016 11:59 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 131 of 166 (783485)
05-05-2016 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by ringo
05-05-2016 12:35 PM


Saturday Night Live would call it Pat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 05-05-2016 12:35 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 166 (783490)
05-05-2016 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
05-04-2016 1:33 AM


I can understand the opposing view up to a point but have nevertheless said I think it's based on not recognizing the actuality of the situation.
I think many of us recognize your position on this issue. Where the departure comes is when you place the responsibility for not recognizing the actuality solely on the people bearing the brunt of the law that works against them.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 05-04-2016 1:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 05-05-2016 7:23 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1562 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 133 of 166 (783499)
05-05-2016 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by NoNukes
05-05-2016 4:52 PM


I think many of us recognize your position on this issue. Where the departure comes is when you place the responsibility for not recognizing the actuality solely on the people bearing the brunt of the law that works against them.
You can prove I did this, right? Please do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by NoNukes, posted 05-05-2016 4:52 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Rrhain, posted 05-08-2016 6:50 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 134 of 166 (783551)
05-06-2016 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by subbie
05-05-2016 2:56 PM


subbie writes:
I'd call it Plessy v. Ferguson.
Separate but equal, eh? In fact, the Undecided washroom is anything but equal since it's not wheelchair accessible and it's also used for storage so it's barely accessible at all. However, it does discriminate against all wheelchairs regardless of gender.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by subbie, posted 05-05-2016 2:56 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 125 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(2)
Message 135 of 166 (783733)
05-08-2016 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
05-05-2016 7:23 PM


Faith responds to NoNukes:
quote:
quote:
I think many of us recognize your position on this issue. Where the departure comes is when you place the responsibility for not recognizing the actuality solely on the people bearing the brunt of the law that works against them.
You can prove I did this, right? Please do so.
Forgot your own argument again, didn't you?
Message 28:
Well, mount a campaign to clarify all this and stop calling people who don't understand such things bigots and haters.
And you doubled down on it in Message 36:
I'm thinking of a nice gentle campaign WHEN THE LAWS THAT SCARE PEOPLE ARE PROPOSED, that would describe the actual situation that they'd be facing:
people who mostly look like the sex they have chosen to be, who already use the facilities of their choice without being noticed
Female-identified gay men in the women's room who are no threat to the women or girls there because they have no attraction to women or girls, and no threat to boys because there are no boys there
I wonder how many gay women prefer the men's room or would not be noticed there. Seems like they'd be the ones threatened rather than the men. Not going to threaten anybody in any case.
A warning about some who would look out of place, such as a hulking biological male in female dress. These are the people who are probably going to need the most aggressive campaigning for acceptance. Like those who pass, though, the point is that there is no threat to anybody, even if they freak you out.
That is the sort of campaign I'm thinking of. You'd have to modify it to accommodate the realities as you know them.
You're making the victims of bullying responsible for convincing bullies to stop.
"Please, sir, could you take your boot off my neck," never works.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 05-05-2016 7:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024