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Author Topic:   Message of the Bible
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 213 (77887)
01-11-2004 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Cold Foreign Object
01-11-2004 7:39 PM


What is your source of information for how God must/should be ?

The observation that God does not observably act in this world.

Who's standard of morality are you using to explain God away ?

The one your God would have us follow.

Is this standard a rigged litmus test ?

Hardly - merely the realization that a moral, omnipotent God could not allow injustice and suffering in the world. That these things do exist is evidence that God is moral or all-powerful, but not both. Moral entities do not stand by when the have the power to ameliorate suffering. Ergo either God lacks morals or power (or both).


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 Message 168 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-11-2004 7:39 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4812 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 173 of 213 (77900)
01-12-2004 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Cold Foreign Object
01-11-2004 7:54 PM


Hey WT,

Im really curious about the answer to this one:

www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=154&m=149#149 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=154&m=149#149">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=154&m=149#149

I asked aquestions. It is the only one I want adressed, I have yet to hear one.

I look forward to your reply.

Thanx.

[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-12-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-11-2004 7:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thom
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 213 (77902)
01-12-2004 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Cold Foreign Object
01-10-2004 2:13 PM


"When I read the O.T. I see a God who, because of Christ, has been much more merciful to me than I deserve. I could of been judged like those sinners but God MAKES you see the value of His Son in that WE have not received like treatment. We receive mercy LITERALLY FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. This is the only reason people like you get away with your ridiculous criticism of God."

So why did God wait so long to become merciful? Why the change of heart? Did He get soft in His old age or just realize that He was wrong?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-10-2004 2:13 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-12-2004 10:27 PM Thom has responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3275 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 175 of 213 (77930)
01-12-2004 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Cold Foreign Object
01-11-2004 7:54 PM


Hi WT.

Thanks for your reply.

There is no hurry for a reply to my message, I fully understand how difficult it is to find the time to reply when you are dealing with quite a few people here.

I am dreadfully busy here too, so there really is no hurry.

Take care.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-11-2004 7:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 176 of 213 (78113)
01-12-2004 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Yaro
01-12-2004 1:10 AM


Because when Adam/Eve sinned in the Garden they were driven out by God. In essence, they were cut-off from the Source of Life (God).

Their disobedience gave Satan/serpent temporary ownershio of the world. Thats what was up for grabs in the Tree test.

Every person born since then is also born separated from the Source of Life because of them (Adam/Eve).

Is this fair ?

Irrelevant. But if you ask me it is clearly unfair but my view reflects the view of every person in the world. God doesn't apologize for this or explain it. He declares that we are born outside the Garden unable to relate to the source of our life : God.

We are born under the jurisdiction of Satan who controls the world.

This is the context of all the horror in the O.T.

Man sinning under the influence of Satan and with the knowledge of good and evil. This deadly combination proves God right "if you touch of that God-damn tree you will surely die"

The murderous horror of the O.T. is derived from Satan and his reign as the god of this world. He only cares about exploiting our inherited evil Adamic nature. He incites sin which carries the penalty of death.

Why did God allow this ?

Because we are on trial to see if we will use our free will to trust God to keep His word. Adam/Eve failed, but we face the same type of trial in that the rest of the Bible makes it clear that IF man intends to relate to God via the pursuit of good over evil then "you will surely die"

The Bible is clear works do not save. Only faith in His word of promise.

Yaro, you wrongly assume those tribes had no knowledge of God.
Those tribes rejected God, that is the reason why God wiped them out.

It is actually quite simple.

The murderous rampages of the O.T. is the result of a world operated by Satan. He got ownership of the world via the Garden incident. Why do you think he offerred Jesus the world if He would bow down and worship him ?

Jesus never contested his claim that he owned the world.

God has a salvation plan - Satan exists to frustrate it and make people fail.

All the death in the O.T. testifies to the seriousness of sin.

Am I blaming the devil ?

Yes, because it is true.

But God holds the sinner accountable, Satan only wants to destroy that which God loves because this is his only avenue to hurt God for His refusal to forgive him of his rebellious mutiny.

We have free will, there is a devil tempting us to mis use it.

The O.T. is a record of God's hands being tied and prevented from helping fallen man because of our sins. This is why the sacrifices of the O.T. are so important, and the greatest sacrifice of all - Christ's.

Because of Jesus, God can now not violate the integrity of His word and rescue us from our evil nature.

Yaro, your assumption that whoever had no knowledge of God is purely subjective. All the ancients believed in God. It is only this modern yuppie trash generation that rejects His existence based upon their desire to not want a Boss.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 187 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 01-14-2004 3:37 AM Cold Foreign Object has responded

ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 4554 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 177 of 213 (78115)
01-12-2004 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Cold Foreign Object
01-12-2004 9:47 PM


All the ancients believed in God. It is only this modern yuppie trash generation that rejects His existence ...

Speaking of trash ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-12-2004 9:47 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 213 (78118)
01-12-2004 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Cold Foreign Object
01-12-2004 9:47 PM


WT

Let me get this straight Jesus is God ,God is Jesus.Correct? Just what sacrifice did He make? If He was Immortal to begin with then He has no death to face. Exactly what do you suppose happens to the sins He takes from you? How does he suffer? Does He spend time in hell for you or what?


"I am not young enough to know everything. "
Oscar Wilde

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 179 of 213 (78119)
01-12-2004 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Thom
01-12-2004 2:09 AM


Good question !

The Bible makes it clear that everything has a course to run.

This includes mankind's jurisdiction under the law of Moses, which the New Testament says was a shadow cast by the substance of Christ

The entire O.T. period until Jesus prophesied of Him in word, types and symbolism. It was basically an introduction of Jesus Christ.

The soveriegnty of God decided the length of the course until He manifested His Son.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Thom, posted 01-12-2004 2:09 AM Thom has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 213 (78120)
01-12-2004 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Cold Foreign Object
01-12-2004 10:27 PM


The soveriegnty of God decided the length of the course until He manifested His Son.

So what you're saying is, no reason at all. God is capricious and arbitrary.


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 181 of 213 (78134)
01-12-2004 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Brian
01-11-2004 6:19 AM


Thank you for your post encouraging a relaxed pace. I realize people like yourself have responsibilities and a life to live.

A person responds when they respond - please do not ever feel you must hurry a reply to me.

I am actually very happy that a debater finally understood my simple request that something be assumed. I want to reiterate that I understand that you are assuming the claim that the Bible claims to be the word of God. I also undersatand that you do not believe the Bible to be the word of God.

The entire Protestant and Catholic church worlds maintain that the Bible contains/is the eternal word of God.

The canon of scripture is a very voluminous subject. Wars have been fought regarding this very question (what is the word of God).

In Luke 4, Jesus read from Isaiah. The source He read from was the Septuagint which was the "Bible" in those times.

The Septuagint was a greek translation of the O.T. hebrew.

This begins the basis for the authority of what record contains the word of God. Jesus used the Septuagint, thus we have His stamp of approval concerning this source.

Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, and His followers since His resurrection have by consensus decided a criteria by which they have determined what is the inspired word of God and what is not.

I submit that there is no "harm" in assuming the Bible to be the word of God. If it is not, then there is only harm to those who hold this erroneous belief, and no harm to those who do not.

If a person does not believe there is a God then it is pointless to argue or debate whether a certain source contains His word. If a person assumes the claim then there is a reference base to argue His existence and/or the claims found therein.

You say "....it is impossible for a God not to know anything..."

Brian, what is the source of this belief concerning God ?

I only said that there was ONE exception to the omniscience of God, then I offered some evidence contained in a source claiming to be His word, which if true is a record of what the Author wants known.

Genesis 22:12 says " ....now I know ..." (God speaking) This clearly indicates that until this moment God did not know something.

I submit that God does not know FOR CERTAIN if a person will use their free will to trust Him or not given the oportunity to do otherwise. Until you do what you do (in this very specific context defined as to trust or not to trust) God does not know. He is prepared in either case to react accordingly.

The Fall ( as you put it ) was a free will test that God did not know the outcome for sure until Adam/Eve actually did what they did.

Why is it folklore ?

Because there are similar stories in existence fact or fiction ? The claim is that the Genesis account is the protected version, the guarded facts and the others unguarded by God. This explains the similarities of the other stories and there differences. It strongly evidences a source that all these stories have and their common denominators. If the claim is true that the Bible is the word of God then the Genesis account becomes the logical choice to be that source.

Moving on......

How could God know if Satan would rebel ?

He could predict, He could prepare, but He cannot know for certain IF the being in question has free will.

If God knew Satan would rebel, then Satan could claim that he was set up. And if God told Satan that he would rebel then Satan could say "but I haven't and I won't " . This is why God does not know for certain what a free will person will do (context alredy defined) UNTIL they actually do it.

You say I can have my one exception to His omniscience but it proves that He does not exist. What is the source of this belief ?

Moving on....

Why are things learned in Sunday School not true ?

I am not the least bit insulted (not that you intended insult) that you compared my theology to something you hold as borderline ridiculous.

Why, tell me why, my theology is extinct ?

My level of theological education is equivalent to any MBA degree in a major university.

To equate Sunday School with ridiculous is clearly understood, but NOT to exclude the truth from this analogy also indicts the information contained in the source (the Bible) as ridiculous, and remember we are assuming this source to be His word.

As far as YOUR ending statement concerning the message of the Bible - I would have to completely agree with this statement to be perfectly compatible with my belief as to what the message of the Bible is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Brian, posted 01-11-2004 6:19 AM Brian has not yet responded

Thom
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 213 (78140)
01-13-2004 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Cold Foreign Object
01-12-2004 10:27 PM


"The Bible makes it clear that everything has a course to run.

This includes mankind's jurisdiction under the law of Moses, which the New Testament says was a shadow cast by the substance of Christ"

What I dont understand is God's policy change. He went from being an incessantly vengeful micromanager in the old testament to a laissez faire leftist in the new testament.

"The entire O.T. period until Jesus prophesied of Him in word, types and symbolism. It was basically an introduction of Jesus Christ."

The prophocies of the OT are Nostradamously ambiguous at best, but none of them said the messiah would die on the cross for man's sins. And even though the bible part 2 says that such a thing occurred, it dosen't explain why God was compelled to rewrite the rules. If this was all part of the master plan from the outset, Genesis, Exodous, Leviticus, Numbers, Dueterium, etc...are mute regarding that notion. Moreover, why would the "nature" of the creator change over time? Presumeably perfection, as that which is attributed to God, is not contingent and atlerable over time, or space, or anything else.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 213 (78151)
01-13-2004 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Thom
01-13-2004 12:49 AM


What I dont understand is God's policy change.

I think it was more of a completion of contract.


John 19:30 When therefore Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished ; and having bowed his head, he delivered up his spirit.

He went from being an incessantly vengeful micromanager in the old testament to a laissez faire leftist in the new testament.

More micromangement;


Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, that every idle word which men shall say, they shall render an account of it in judgment-day: 37 for by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Not a laissez faire leftist.


Mark 16:15 And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation. 16 He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned .

And even though the bible part 2 says that such a thing occurred, it dosen't explain why God was compelled to rewrite the rules.

Old Testament prophecy;


Jer 31:31 Behold, days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day of my taking them by the hand, to lead them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and will write it in their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

New Testament fulfillment;


1 Cor 11:24 and having given thanks broke [it], and said, This is my body, which [is] for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 In like manner also the cup, after having supped, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye shall drink [it], in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come.

If this was all part of the master plan from the outset, Genesis, Exodous, Leviticus, Numbers, Dueterium, etc...are mute regarding that notion.

See demuting verse above, Jer 31:31

Moreover, why would the "nature" of the creator change over time?

I wouldn't say His nature changed as much as all things are unfolding as planned.


Heb 1:10 And, *Thou* in the beginning , Lord, hast founded the earth, and works of thy hands are the heavens. 11 They shall perish, but *thou* continuest still; and they all shall grow old as a garment, 12 and as a covering shalt thou roll them up, and they shall be changed; but *thou* art the Same, and thy years shall not fail.

Presumeably perfection, as that which is attributed to God, is not contingent and atlerable over time, or space, or anything else.

Apparently you're drawing conclusions from looking at only a portion of the overall picture.


Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city. 15 Without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loves and makes a lie.

[This message has been edited by P e t e r, 01-14-2004]


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by AdminBrian, posted 01-13-2004 12:02 PM P e t e r has responded

AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 213 (78210)
01-13-2004 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by P e t e r
01-13-2004 2:02 AM


Hi Peter.

Could I ask a favour please?

It is nothing to do with forum rules or anything like that, I find your posts very interesting to read but I am having difficulty reading the Bible quotes due to the colour of the text.

Would it be possible for you to use a text colour that contrasts a little more with the background?

I hope this is not too inconvenient and it would help me to read your posts a bit easier.

Many Thanks.

AdminBrian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by P e t e r, posted 01-13-2004 2:02 AM P e t e r has responded

Replies to this message:
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P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 213 (78221)
01-13-2004 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by AdminBrian
01-13-2004 12:02 PM


Can Do
No problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by AdminBrian, posted 01-13-2004 12:02 PM AdminBrian has not yet responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 213 (78321)
01-14-2004 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Yaro
11-28-2003 11:34 AM


Paradise and 70 virgins
CAN YOU, OR ANYONE EXPLAIN TO ME, WHY THE SOLDIERS GET TO KEEP THE VIRGINS (NOT BABYS, ANIMALS, OLD FOLK ETC.) "FOR THEMSELVES"?

Yaro

Depending on which translation you use, it seems the soldiers took it upon themselves and were reprimanded for it.

Young's Literal Translation

Numbers 31:14

and Moses is wroth against the inspectors of the force, chiefs of the thousands, and chiefs of the hundreds, who are coming in from the host of the battle. 15 And Moses saith unto them, `Have ye kept alive every female? 16 lo, they--they have been to the sons of Israel, through the word of Balaam, to cause a trespass against Jehovah in the matter of Peor, and the plague is in the company of Jehovah. 17 `And now, slay ye every male among the infants, yea, every woman known of man by the lying of a male ye have slain; 18 and all the infants among the women, who have not known the lying of a male, ye have kept alive for yourselves. 19 `And ye, encamp ye at the outside of the camp seven days--any who hath slain a person, and any who hath come against a pierced one, ye cleanse yourselves on the third day, and on the seventh day--ye and your captives;

SO, PLEASE, SOMEBODY, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TELL ME WHY THEY KEEP THE VIRGINS, AND KILL EVERYTHING ELSE, IF NOT FOR SEXUAL PURPOSES!!!!!??????

I don't have the finer details, but back then those under the law, the act of adultery was punishable by death.

Wouldn't be the first time someone tried to beat the system.

>

[This message has been edited by P e t e r, 01-14-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Yaro, posted 11-28-2003 11:34 AM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Yaro, posted 01-14-2004 12:12 PM P e t e r has responded

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