Free will vs Omniscience

But what if we had already made our choice? Why would we choose to change our choice---irregardless of the fact that we couldnt? Just because God knows the future does not mean that he chose it for us. In my argument, He let us "choose" it...and yet foreknew what we would choose..(unless we use the Open Theism argument)Edited by Phat, : changed adminphat to phat...oops

I disagree. You are implicitly making knowledge of the future the cause of the future. Instead, suppose that our free will is the cause, and knowledge of the future is an effect. Then the future can be knowable and we can still have free will.Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

You're failing to understand Cat Sci's position. Cat Sci has a view of free will that is incompatible with foreknowledge. If you want to argue against his position you need to argue for an alternative conception of free will.

So, if I understand the concept you hold, you’re saying your god does not force or direct your decisions but knows what decisions you will make. He has given us unguided free will already knowing where that path of our free will is going to lead. That means that millennia ago your god knew that the decisions that would be made by all my ancestors would eventually lead to my conception and that the decisions I make would lead him to condemn me to hell for all eternity; that he allowed this course of events, without his intervention or direction, to unfold willingly and knowingly. The outcome is already known, my torture in the lake of fire, though not directed by him, was already known to him at the creation of the world.Since your god made the world to work this way how does this differ from a directed, predetermined, world absent of free will?Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

First, I was not presenting "my view". I was putting forth a "thought experiment" that I hoped anyone could consider:

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Instead, suppose that our free will is the cause, and knowledge of the future is an effect. Then the future can be knowable and we can still have free will.

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Second, there is a huge difference. In a directed, predetermined world with no free will, we would be automatons, with no input or choice in what happens. In what I suggested, we would have free will and would be able to affect the course of events. Whether or not someone knows ahead-of-time what we will decide has no affect on our ability to choose or cause."Knowledge" is not "determination" or "causation"; it is simply "knowledge".

Your thought experiment requires information to travel backwards in time - which raises the question of whether it is possible at all. Also, it can only escape the risk of paradox by moving to a fatalist view which would completely destroy free will.And it still doesn't change the fact that foreknowledge requires the future to be fixed.

Doesn't truly knowing beforehand what we will do but still calling it free will change the definition of free will to something impossible in our universe, since truly knowing anything beforehand would rule out quantum uncertainty?Our knowledge *is* imperfect, so quantum uncertainty may reflect yet unknown but deterministic laws of nature, but should philosophical arguments we make today discount current science?--Percy

My bad. Thought experiment is being considered. At the level of us humans that sounds great. But, at the level of an omniscient deity the outcome is already known. Regardless of the fact that said deity does not guide our decisions, it knows, I assume with perfect certainty, what decisions we will make, has known from the beginning what decisions we would make and what all the outcomes will be. So, from the level of the omniscient deity everything is known and set.I cannot separate the fact that in the larger universal sense all is known and set while we humans practice free will? In your thought experiment then, the exercise of our free will in determining the course of events as we see it, will not, cannot, change the results this omniscient deity already knows to exist.Doesn't that make our free will an illusion? Are we not actually automatons without any ability to change the larger outcome an omniscient sees.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

I suspect you are right; I probably don't agree with his concept of "free will".ABE: I looked at all of Cat Sci's posts in this thread, but don't see his definition of "free will." Could he or someone else please explain what it is? (I only see his definition of "omnipotence", which is not the orthodox Christian view and which I disagree with.)Edited by kbertsche, : Added ABE

And I'm talking about a universe where we've made all the decisions, so therefore the future is knowable.If we're the ones with all the power who freely made all our decisions, how are we "powerless to change it?"The idea I'm talking about... you have as much "power to change things" as you're talking about. It's just that all the decisions were made when the universe was created. All of time, all of the universe was created whenever/however-the-universe-was-created.From there, we're simply experiencing things now. You're acting as if "new information" can be added to the universe that doesn't exist in "all of time."
Can you explain how something can happen "in time" that is not a part of "all time?"If something could happen to you, at some point in time, in this universe... it was created along with the rest of the universe when the universe was created.At the creation of the universe, you (along with everyone else) made all your decisions based on all the information that you would ever gain throughout the entire universe.Now, we're just experiencing all those items.So, the future is knowable.That's how God can see the future, and we still have free will. The universe was created (and God did not know the outcome). Then the universe exists, and God can see what we've all decided. We're just experiencing it slower than God can, is all.Can future-information be transmitted to us?The question kind of loses meaning when you look at a universe with all time created at the creation of the universe.
What is "future" or "past" in a universe like this? It's like "left" and "right" of a piece of lumber. Just walk to the other side and "left" and "right" are reversed. In universe where all of time is created at the beginning... "future" and "past" have no anchored meaning.But if we try to force the nonsensical phrasing onto the idea, I would guess at these three options: Can future-information be transmitted to us?

• Perhaps this is impossible. (God cannot "talk" to us, but could still see our future while we have free-will)
• Perhaps it's possible, but would then shatter the universe. (Someone can see the future, and we have free-will, but if future-information... "external-to-the-universe information"... is forced into the universe... the universe shatters)
• Perhaps it's possible and would be integrated into the beginning of the universe when all of time and all universe-related-events were created such that the outcome is still just-being-played-out as everything else is. (Someone can see the future, and inform us, and we react, but this is all a-part-of-our-universe so it's all integrated and contained and created at the beginning of the universe along with everything else).

Ha ha. This is exactly what I've been defining the whole thread... you did exist when the universe was created.We all did, everyone (ever) did, and everything did too. The entire universe existed at the creation of the universe. That's what "the creation of the universe" is. Time is just another dimension like the others. When ALL of space was created, ALL of time was created too. From the beginning to the end. We're just experiencing it now. What are you talking about?
The "you" at the creation of the universe is even more "you" than the play-through you're simply experiencing now. That's the 'you' that made all the decisions. It's not like there's 2 of you... there's only you. And of course you're culpable for the decisions you make. Who else would be making them?You seem to be implying that "more information" is being added to your brain during the course of the universe, or something like that.
In the idea I'm talking about, all that information was accessible to you at the beginning of the universe, and you made your decisions at that point. Now, you're simply experiencing them in a strange way as we travel through the timeline of this now-static universe.

Actually, it is. There's the me that made all the decisions at the beginning of the universe, of which I have no memory/knowledge/experience, and then there is the me in the present that is going through the experiencing of the decisions that I've already made. Well yeah, there's the new information that I receive in the form of experiencing the decisions. If I already had that info then I would already know what decisions I am going to make in the future... but I don't. I don't receive the info on what decisions I'm making until I experience them in the present. So let's say at the beginning of the universe, I decide to touch the flame of a candle on two separate occasions.God sees the future and notices that I touch a candle flame twice.Then I go through the experiencing of the first decision, and realize that it hurts to touch the flame of a candle and I don't want to do that anymore.Do I have the power, then, to change my decision and only touch the flame once?If so, then God didn't really "know" the future, he was wrong because it changed.If it cannot be changed, then how is the me that is going through the experience of making the decisions in any way in control of what decisions are going to be made in the future?

No, I'm not making the knowledge the cause. Our will can still be the cause, but if what we are going to will in the future is locked in and cannot be changed, then that will is not free.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. If our will is truly the "cause", I think this would imply that our will is NOT locked in and that it CAN be changed. Otherwise, our will would not be truly the "cause", but merely an inevitable intermediate step due to some other cause.Again, suppose that our free will is the cause, and knowledge of the future is an effect. Then the future can be knowable and we can still have free will. The future would not be "fixed" until we "fix" it with our actions and choices. But a being who transcends time and can see the future from the past can have perfect forknowledge of what will occur.

Then, does the foreknowledge of those causes change with the will? And if so, doesn't that make the knowledge wrong at some points? Can we really call that "knowing" what is going to happen if it is subject to change? Does the foreknowledge evolve along with the whims of our will as we go through time fixing choices with our decisions?What does an ever changing foreknowledge really even know?

But... there's not.It's my idea so I get to define how it works.
You may "perceive" it or "feel" like this is the way it is... but it's not the way it is.Sort of in a "how can you know if we're brains in jars or not?" situation. You can't tell, it's currently impossible. Therefore, I'm defining a possible idea from there.So, it's one you, and that's it. There is no separate, distinct "experience-ing you." The you who is doing the experiencing is the same one who made the decisions at the beginning of the universe.Like recording your own voice. You said something... and a recording can replay it. The recording isn't some "other you..." it's you.
You can "feel like" the recording the someone else (and it may even sound different from what you think your voice sounds like) but it's no someone else, it's you. But that's a part of the universe. Therefore, it happened when the universe was created. That's not what's going on, though.
What you're experiencing now is not gaining any new information. You're simply going over a recording from when you made the decisions in the first place... from the beginning of the universe.
You feel like the information is new to you now... but it's just a feeling, you had the same information when you made the decision at the beginning of the universe.The difference between how you think of the universe now and the idea I'm describing is more like a simple time-delay. It's not changing anything at all, it doesn't make any difference at all. This isn't how it works.
You're not describing the idea I'm defining.Any sort of "realizing that it hurts to touch the flame of a candle and you don't want to do that anymore" would have happened at the beginning of the universe. Your decision on the information would have been made then.The 'experiencing now' is a playback... a recording. The universe is no longer creating itself, you are simply living out the decisions you made at the creation of the universe. Of course you did, at the beginning of the universe. Maybe try to think of it this way:Right now, Cat Sci should understand this:Past - NothingPresent:
1. Touch candle.
2. Feel heat.
3. Make decision.Future: Based on "present" information.And update this to the next dayPast: "Candle hurt"
Present: "Another Candle - don't touch"
Future: Based on "present" information.And update this to the next dayNow, look to yesterday and see that you cannot change 'the past' you cannot change that you decided to not touch the flame at this point.Transfer into my idea:Think of the Universe being created and time going insanely-fast such that the entire universe is played out in just a few "seconds."
You would have seen a flame, felt the heat, and then decided to not touch the second flame (or whatever decision you freely made).
Then... once the universe is created, you get to experience these decisions in the "now" as we live our lives.
For billions of years you experience nothing.
Then you finally get to experience seeing a flame, feeling the heat and deciding not to touch the second flame.At this point of "experience" your "decision" is already in the past, already made. So, like the above Cat-Sci-understanding... you can't change the decision you made yesterday... Here, you can't change the decision you made when the universe was created.Same amount of power to change your mind freely when you make the decision.
(Cat-Sci-understanding - yesterday)
(My idea - beginning of the universe)Same amount of inability to 'get new information' so you can change your mind about 'the past' after the decision is made.
(Cat-Sci-understanding - today, looking at yesterday)
(My idea - the experience of 'the present')It's exactly the same cause-and-effect structure, just a different definition on the actual timing of things, that's all. A very important point.
Even for my idea, there still needs to be "a time" where God did not know the future.
For Cat-Sci-understanding... this is "the future."
For my idea... this is "the creation of the universe."Obviously, you have no problems with God "knowing yesterday (the past)".
In my idea... God is simply "knowing yesterday" before you get to experience it. You already went through it, and did it (at the beginning of the universe), you simply don't have a current, conscience memory of it... that's the "experiencing" part.I fully admit that this is not very intuitive.
I fully admit that it's not likely (and I don't even personally think it's the way things are).But... just 'cause we don't find it comforting, or likely, or intuitive... doesn't make it impossible.