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Author Topic:   Iconic Peppered Moth - gene mutation found
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 76 (785297)
06-02-2016 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Faith
06-02-2016 4:48 AM


here was never any more than ordinary microevolution brought about by natural selection to the peppered moths, and making the change the result of a mutation instead of ordinary microevolution raises the question: how is it that a mutation so suited to the needs of the creature just happened to come along at the right time?
It does raise the question, yes. But the problem for you is that the genetic mutation responsible has been identified and it is known why the moths are different. In short, the idea that mutations are responsible is supported by the evidence, and the idea that new combinations are responsible is not supported by any evidence. The observations do not support both theories equally well.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Faith, posted 06-02-2016 4:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 06-02-2016 6:02 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 76 (785337)
06-02-2016 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
06-02-2016 6:25 AM


The point you need to take away is that the mutation is direct and substantial evidence for the mechanism underlying the ToE.
You cannot talk to or pet a moth and therefore you might just as well be talking about an icky bacteria or some kind of cattle, or a curly eared cat. This example does not count.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 06-02-2016 6:25 AM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 76 (785340)
06-02-2016 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
06-02-2016 8:16 AM


Re: not wierd at all.
The mutation happened when it happened but it was the Industrial Revolution that selected for that mutation.
We can also add that the dark species was unknown prior to 1811, and that the gene for black moths is dominant. This is a new allele, and clearly a mutation.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 06-02-2016 8:16 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 06-02-2016 11:29 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 76 (785348)
06-03-2016 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
06-02-2016 11:29 PM


Re: not wierd at all.
Even a dominant can more or less disappear in a large population where the recessive is strongly selected.
Except that the selection pressure that actually exists has been characterized in experiments and does not support your hypothesis. Except that more or less disappear does not correspond to the actual non-observance that is actually what is documented. Except that now we have evidence indicating when the gene appeared, Faith.
There is no place on earth where anyone would have a major difficulty finding someone brown eyes, such that we would conclude that they are new.
So, no, your hypothesis does not fit the evidence. But thanks for acknowledging some other effect other than isolation for changing the prevalence of phenotypes and genotypes.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 06-02-2016 11:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 06-03-2016 5:14 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 76 (785369)
06-03-2016 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
06-03-2016 5:14 AM


Re: not wierd at all.
You mean new gene frequencies brought about by selection? But that's all the same thing I've been talking about
No, what you and I propose is certainly is not the same thing. Your claim is that the change in frequencies due to iolatation causes new characteristics to emerge through some kind of funky recombination thingy.
My claim is almost the exact opposite. Namely that the gene frequencies are a statistic that reflects survival. It is not that the phenotypes of moths born to white moths are changed because of new combinations producing a new phenotype. It is instead that the white moths all got eaten leaving a phenotype that already existed, namely the black moths, to dominate the population. The black moths then do what black moths do, namely have black offspring. Isolation is not required, and of course isolation did not happen in this instance.
In this case, we have an identified mutation, that is the source of the new phentotype and also a relatively new genotype. Did you in this very thread repeat your idea that mutations could not be involved in the process? Accordingly, we are absolutely not talking about the same thing.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 06-03-2016 5:14 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 76 (785381)
06-03-2016 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
06-03-2016 7:50 PM


In Tangle's original post where he quoted the date for its appearance in the late 1800s at the height of the Industrial Revolution.
I believe the quoted date was 1819+/- or so and not the late 1800s. That puts the age of the gene somewhere during the transition 50 year period leading up to the Industrial Revolution. The gene seems to have preceded the time when factories were belching out smoke. The height of the period would have been much later. Wikipedia gives dates for the first citings of the moths that are consistent with the age of the mutation.
I understand that Tangle originated the idea that the date was coincidental with the height of the Industrial Revolution, but that does not really seem to be the case. Much less of a coincidence, but is it really that surprising? Absent the mutation, the moth might have have been wiped out, but that might only have made it one of the species that have been lost since industrialization.
I think it is also important to note that because the gene is dominant, it also results in prolonged survival of white moths because some members of the species will carry the recessive gene while still being dark. So there is no immediate, permanent loss of genetic diversity.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 06-03-2016 7:50 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2016 2:56 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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