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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
Diomedes
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Posts: 884
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 31 of 718 (786081)
06-15-2016 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by caffeine
06-10-2016 1:05 PM


The Latest Polls
Appears the 'Leave' campaign has opened a sizable lead in the latest Brexit polls:

http://www.reuters.com/...e/us-britain-eu-poll-idUSKCN0YZ2FY

Note that there are still enough un-decideds to swing the result either way.

On a side bar, Rupert Murdoch's Sun Newspaper has endorsed the 'Leave' campaign. Now I am not sure what to think, considering Murdoch is the Devil Incarnate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by caffeine, posted 06-10-2016 1:05 PM caffeine has responded

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caffeine
Member
Posts: 1682
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 32 of 718 (786095)
06-16-2016 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Diomedes
06-15-2016 2:28 PM


Re: The Latest Polls
On a side bar, Rupert Murdoch's Sun Newspaper has endorsed the 'Leave' campaign.

And in other breaking news, day followed night, people eat food, and the Pope is in favour of Catholicism.

I am somewhat frustrated that the Remain campaign is not making more of Tuesday's ruling at the European Court of Justice. Brussels had challenged Britain's policy to limit benefits to certain foreign citizens who didn't work, but on Tuesday the ECJ ruled the UK governments measures were consistent with EU law. Wouldn't this be a perfect case study against the idea of Brussels dictating rules to Britain?


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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7008
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 33 of 718 (786097)
06-16-2016 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by caffeine
06-16-2016 12:32 PM


Re: The Latest Polls
caffeine writes:

I am somewhat frustrated that the Remain campaign is not making more of Tuesday's ruling at the European Court of Justice. Brussels had challenged Britain's policy to limit benefits to certain foreign citizens who didn't work, but on Tuesday the ECJ ruled the UK governments measures were consistent with EU law. Wouldn't this be a perfect case study against the idea of Brussels dictating rules to Britain?

For some reason they're determined to not discuss immigration and to concentrate almost entirely on the economic. It's dumb. The thick only care about immigration and don't understand economics.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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Big_Al35
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Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 34 of 718 (786128)
06-17-2016 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by nwr
06-06-2016 1:12 PM


Not sure if remain or exit of the EU makes much difference. The Crown Corporation of London which is a conglomerate is not accountable to the EU. In fact, like the Vatican in Rome and Washington DC, it governs itself above super-states like the EU or the United States. Leaving the EU will not disturb NATO or the IMF. Debt and the war machine will continue. Immigration however, might be reduced.
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6490
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 35 of 718 (786181)
06-18-2016 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Big_Al35
06-17-2016 3:14 AM


The Crown Corporation of London which is a conglomerate is not accountable to the EU. In fact, like the Vatican in Rome and Washington DC, it governs itself above super-states like the EU or the United States.

Nope.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31177
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 36 of 718 (786188)
06-18-2016 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Big_Al35
06-17-2016 3:14 AM


Al writes:

In fact, like the Vatican in Rome and Washington DC, it governs itself above super-states like the EU or the United States.

You really need to try to learn the basics before you post such nonsense. First, the Vatican is a Nation State just like the Great Britain or United States. The United States is not a super-state. And DC does not govern even itself and is in fact governed by Congress and does not even get voting representation.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1520
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 37 of 718 (786298)
06-19-2016 7:01 PM


Watch a 20% shrinkage in the British economy if "leave" wins.
Then watch a worldwide depression result.

The late 1920s all over again.

The "great inflation" (or Great Inflation in caps) will result from defaults on national debts.

Academic studies show that Denmark and the U.K. have 25% larger economies today (and Ireland 50% larger) - than would have been the case otherwise - due to the decision to join the E.U. in the 1970s.

Watch and learn.

Watch and learn.


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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1520
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 38 of 718 (786299)
06-19-2016 7:20 PM


If trade has been so bad for people, Then why such growth since 1993?
https://knoema.com/...zh/gdp-per-capita-by-country-1980-2014

Look at the average income per capita before NAFTA, WTO/GATT and PNTR with China (1993, 1994, and 2000).

1990
23,913.8

1991
24,365.6

1992
25,466.8

1993
26,441.6

It is now about $57,000 per person, and with just 2% inflation per year (1980s had around 10% per year on average).

The anti-free trade crowd has lost if one looks at the evidence.

Same with the anti immigration crowd.

The immigrants have the highest incomes. Look at the average Indian American income.

Our trading partners have had an economic explosion too.


Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 718 (786311)
06-20-2016 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by LamarkNewAge
06-19-2016 7:20 PM


Re: If trade has been so bad for people, Then why such growth since 1993?
It is now about $57,000 per person, and with just 2% inflation per year (1980s had around 10% per year on average).

Some possible ways that this presentation might fall short of making your case:

Average income does not actually tell us how the bulk of folks are doing. How about some other measures of central tendency such as the median, or a number for what the middle class income averages. We know that globalization has produces increases in wealth. What is questioned is who and how many folks have benefited.

Your inflation numbers as cited don't provide us with any meaningful way to compare current income to 1990s income, because you only provide current inflation while comparing todays income to income from over twenty years prior.

The immigrants have the highest incomes. Look at the average Indian American income.

I have no idea what this is supposed to prove.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 40 of 718 (786312)
06-20-2016 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
06-18-2016 1:54 PM


jar writes:

First, the Vatican is a Nation State just like the Great Britain or United States

If, as you say, it is a nation state, then is it a member of the EU? In fact it would not even qualify to get into the EU but because it is surrounded by an EU state, Italy, it is inextricably linked to the EU but not governed by it. Although recently they have been forced to pay taxes on all non-religious properties including residential spaces and shopping malls. So yeah they don't have to pay taxes on church and religious buildings. This makes them above the EU super-state in my eyes.

Edited by Big_Al35, : No reason given.


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 Message 36 by jar, posted 06-18-2016 1:54 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31177
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 41 of 718 (786315)
06-20-2016 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Big_Al35
06-20-2016 8:00 AM


BigAl writes:

If, as you say, it is a nation state, then is it a member of the EU? In fact it would not even qualify to get into the EU but because it is surrounded by an EU state, Italy, it is inextricably linked to the EU but not governed by it. Although recently they have been forced to pay taxes on all non-religious properties including residential spaces and shopping malls. So yeah they don't have to pay taxes on church and religious buildings. This makes them above the EU super-state in my eyes.

What you may think has absolutely nothing to do with what happens to be true. But once again, it would probably be a good idea to actually check your facts before spouting nonsense.

The Vatican is a Nation State and so recognized by all other Nation States, the UN and the EU.

Individual Nation States in the European Union decide their individual religious related taxation policies. Those taxing laws vary by Nation State and exclude different entities from taxation. That is also true in non-EU Nation States.

The fact is the Vatican is a Nation State. As a nation state it decides it's own tax laws. Just because it sits inside Italy does not make it a part of Italy or the EU. A somewhat similar example is the Principality of Monoco, surrounded on three sides by France and the Mediterranean Sea. It too is not a member state of the EU although like the Vatican does have diplomatic relations with both France and the EU.

In addition, what and who gets taxed varies once again by the Nation State and in many cases even smaller political subdivisions like town, prefecture or canton.

In some EU Nation States even membership in a Church is taxed with the state collecting the taxes from the members and then returning the funds to the Church less a handling fee.

The tax I think you are talking about specifically is the 2013 Italian tax on religious commercial properties. But that is Italy taxing properties in Italy, not anything within the Nation State of the Vatican and not an EU tax.

Maybe you should start checking facts beyond the Alternate Reality Media you seem to prefer.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Big_Al35, posted 06-20-2016 8:00 AM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
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caffeine
Member
Posts: 1682
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 42 of 718 (786316)
06-20-2016 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Big_Al35
06-20-2016 8:00 AM


If, as you say, it is a nation state, then is it a member of the EU? In fact it would not even qualify to get into the EU but because it is surrounded by an EU state, Italy, it is inextricably linked to the EU but not governed by it. Although recently they have been forced to pay taxes on all non-religious properties including residential spaces and shopping malls. So yeah they don't have to pay taxes on church and religious buildings. This makes them above the EU super-state in my eyes.

What a bizarre collection of non-sequiturs.

I'm not sure it makes sense to describe the Vatican as a nation state, but it's recognised as a sovereign state by most of the world. It's not in the EU, but then nor are Switzerland or Albania. EU membership is not a requirement.

I do not know the EU treaties oif by heart, but I'm pretty confident there is nothing in there forbidding states whose territory is surrounded by an EU member-state from joining.

No one pays taxes to the EU. The EU has no powers of direct taxation. I believe you're talking about the fact that Italy ended tax-exempt status for church property which was not actually a religious property, like a church or monastery. But this only applies to property on Italian soil, not that on the (tiny) bit of land recognised as sovereign Vatican territory. None of this has anything to do with the EU, though.


This message is a reply to:
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 43 of 718 (786317)
06-20-2016 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
06-20-2016 8:49 AM


jar writes:

The tax I think you are talking about specifically is the 2013 Italian tax on religious commercial properties. But that is Italy taxing properties in Italy, not anything within the Nation State of the Vatican and not an EU tax.

No the point you are missing is that the Vatican has been dodging tax for years. It has only recently been under investigation over its tax affairs. It has only recently been under investigation over other matters as well. Can you tell me who was investigating it? Itself? After all it is self governing. No - the US had it under investigation along with Italy.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31177
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 44 of 718 (786319)
06-20-2016 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Big_Al35
06-20-2016 10:02 AM


Big writes:

No the point you are missing is that the Vatican has been dodging tax for years. It has only recently been under investigation over its tax affairs. It has only recently been under investigation over other matters as well. Can you tell me who was investigating it? Itself? After all it is self governing. No - the US had it under investigation along with Italy.

Again, what utter nonsense.

The US and Italy are investigating the Vatican over the Vatican's Tax Affairs? And what other matters are being investigated?

Sheesh.

To what end? Neither the US nor Italy have any enforcement authority over the Vatican any more than they have enforcement authority over the UK or Russia or any other Nation State.

Do you ever post anything other than absurdities?

AbE:

And as usual, what does any of your nonsense have to do with the topic?

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1520
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 45 of 718 (786323)
06-20-2016 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by NoNukes
06-20-2016 6:45 AM


Re: If trade has been so bad for people, Then why such growth since 1993?
quote:

[NoNukes]
Some possible ways that this presentation might fall short of making your case:

Average income does not actually tell us how the bulk of folks are doing. How about some other measures of central tendency such as the median, or a number for what the middle class income averages. We know that globalization has produces increases in wealth. What is questioned is who and how many folks have benefited.

Your inflation numbers as cited don't provide us with any meaningful way to compare current income to 1990s income, because you only provide current inflation while comparing todays income to income from over twenty years prior.


This is median income levels. Not average. And the incomes have increased about twice the inflation level. From 1980 to 1993, there was no income increase when adjusted for inflation.

Back to post 1993.

Free trade and large immigration increases (including all the 11-12 million "illegals" during this time because 1986-1987 was the slate wiping amnesty for the then 3 million "illegals")helped IMO, but facts show that it sure didn't hurt.

There are internal factors that need addressed for sure.

But don't claim that free trade and immigration hurt us.

South Korea had an income of $1000 per person in 1980. By 2014 it was over $27,400. China went from around $1000 per year income to over $7,400 by 2014 and now over $8000 per year.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD

They purchase our ever mounting debt and keep interest rates (much) lower, which enables more government spending which helps the economy. Interest rates were 21% in 1980 and 16% a few years later. Now they are around 2%.

But, back to internal factors in nations with grumpy populations.

Take England. Here is an issue that needs addressing.

http://www.bloomberg.com/...of-twentysomethings-income-chart

quote:

[Lamark New Age]
"The immigrants have the highest incomes. Look at the average Indian American income."
[NoNukes]
I have no idea what this is supposed to prove.

It proves that open borders (not that we have anything near it, as Indians have to wait forever to get here if they do it the "legal" way and it hurts our growth badly) sure are superior to places with choking borders. Look at the legacy of the division of Germany. West Germans still make over 50% more than East Germans. Look at Mississippi and Alabama and how they are still suffering from their legacy of internal borders.

The 19.2 million (as of May 2013, but surely over 20 million now) Asian Americans make over $70,000 per year (more like $80,000 now) compared to $51,000 for the average American (in May 2013).

Indian Americans (all 3.6 million) crossed $100,000 per year. A milestone.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ticleshow/47126735.cms

Europe has put up borders this year between the 28 EU states, and it has retarded growth with long, choking, border crossings.

The world put up unprecedented borders (like the crushing ones imposed on the Middle East after the 1921 Paris conference) this past century, and it was matched by anti-free trade and anti-immigration policies starting around the same time. Immigration was halted from 1924-1965 in the USA.

We got a depression.

I suppose we might see something like this again. The British could present us with a dramatic example. But we are retarding growth regardless of a dramatic example for all to see or not.

The average world income in U.S. dollars was about $3000 per person in 1993. It is now at about $12,000. China has a GDP that is 20 times higher than 25 years ago. China is spending about $200 billion per year on research, and we have the world growth to thank for it. China set a 5 year goal of increasing research from 1.8% of its economy from 2012 up to 2.2% by 2017. We were able to double the NIH yearly funding (from the governments end, donations are the larger part of the total yearly budget) from about $15 billion up to $30 billion from 1996 to 2003. The 7 year plan (passed by a penny pinching congress in 1996) was very long over due, and the budget has been flat since 2003 (thank you retarded congressmen), but whatever (still)inadequate increases we got 2 decades ago were still a big help for us all (since we all get cancer, bacterial infection, heart disease, brain disease, etc.) and the direct result of growth. Growth that came in a world that was starting to trade with itself. The trade deal with Mexico (and Canada) was the first ever between a "first-world" and developing nation.

These issues are all connected.

We are all connected.

India saw it life expectancy rise from 46 years in 1976 up to 76 in 2007. They benefited from our advances and we benefit from their doctors and engineers. (we benefit from Indian immigrants period, regardless of whether they come here skilled or poor)

The economics are the same when we look at immigration and free trade and compare it to the EU situation.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


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