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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 106 of 1163 (786279)
06-19-2016 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Dr Adequate
06-19-2016 3:22 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
You need to try it yet again. I still don't know what you are talking about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2016 3:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2016 3:54 PM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 107 of 1163 (786281)
06-19-2016 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Faith
06-19-2016 3:26 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
You need to try it yet again. I still don't know what you are talking about.
How did the Flood manage to strictly segregate (for example) Carboniferous and Cretaceous fossils, contriving without a single error to sort fauna according to the false illusory time-scheme that exits only in the fevered imaginations of scientists?
Why do we never get a lobster and a trilobite in the same bed? Or a stony and a rugose coral? Or a sand-dollar with a blastoid? Or any of the former with any of the latter?
Here is a fossil of a lobster with a teleost fish. Why am I never, ever, ever going to see a trilobite with a teleost fish?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 3:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 3:57 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 108 of 1163 (786283)
06-19-2016 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Dr Adequate
06-19-2016 3:54 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
THAT's what you were asking? But that's been asked and answered many times already:
I....don't....know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2016 3:54 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2016 4:02 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 110 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2016 4:03 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 109 of 1163 (786284)
06-19-2016 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Faith
06-19-2016 3:57 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
That raises another question. Given that fact that you have no idea how the Flood could produce the fossil record isn't it at least a little dishonest to claim that the fossil record is evidence of the Flood ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 3:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 110 of 1163 (786285)
06-19-2016 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Faith
06-19-2016 3:57 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
THAT's what you were asking? But that's been asked and answered many times already:
I....don't....know.
I do.
Now, until YECs can come up with something that even vaguely approximates an explanation for why the fossils of the Redwall Limestone are in perfect accordance with real geology, with evolution, and with an old Earth, perhaps they should stop touting them (or, to be precise, fewer than six dozen of them) as evidence for "flood geology".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 3:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 4:29 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 111 of 1163 (786287)
06-19-2016 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Dr Adequate
06-19-2016 4:03 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
But from the Flood point of view there can only be mechanical reasons for the supposed order, the order can only be an illusion of some sort, and until the mechanical explanations are better understood there is nothing to say about it. But we have plenty of other arguments that support the Flood so we don't need to have an answer to everything. I already said this more than once on this thread starting with my very first post on the subject.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2016 4:03 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2016 4:37 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 113 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2016 6:03 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 114 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-19-2016 6:26 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 115 by NoNukes, posted 06-19-2016 6:47 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 112 of 1163 (786288)
06-19-2016 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
06-19-2016 4:29 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
quote:
But from the Flood point of view there can only be mechanical reasons for the supposed order, the order can only be an illusion of some sort, and until the mechanical explanations are better understood there is nothing to say about it
Except that mechanical sorting can't explain the order, and what does it even mean to say that the order is an "illusion" ?
So, again, you have no idea how the Flood could produce the fossil record as it actually exists. Assuming that there must be an explanation - especially when it seems so very, very unlikely - is not the same as actually having one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 4:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 113 of 1163 (786292)
06-19-2016 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
06-19-2016 4:29 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
But from the Flood point of view there can only be mechanical reasons for the supposed order ...
... which you can't think of.
So the score is one entire fossil record to real geology, zero entire fossil records to flood geology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 4:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 114 of 1163 (786293)
06-19-2016 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
06-19-2016 4:29 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
But from the Flood point of view there can only be mechanical reasons for the supposed order, the order can only be an illusion of some sort, and until the mechanical explanations are better understood there is nothing to say about it.
Well, we know that there is no such thing as mechanical reasons for the order of fossils in the fossil record. We know how floods actually mechanically sort objects carried in the flood waters and it is nothing like the fossils in the strata.
The mechanical explanations proposed by floodists are the illusion. Paleontology and geology have perfect explanations for the evidence.Science fits all the pieces together perfectly and leaves the biblical flood story nothing more than a childish myth.
But we have plenty of other arguments that support the Flood so we don't need to have an answer to everything. I already said this more than once on this thread starting with my very first post on the subject.
It turns out that all your other arguments are so riddled with flaws that they don't support anything. Whole college libraries are full of our evidence and descriptions of fossils, but oddly enough none of those descriptions and none of the evidence contains any of the hairbrained YEC excuses for a lack of explanations.
That is the "Great Creationist Fossil Failure", no coherent explanation of anything.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 4:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 1163 (786296)
06-19-2016 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
06-19-2016 4:29 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
But from the Flood point of view there can only be mechanical reasons for the supposed order, the order can only be an illusion of some sort, and until the mechanical explanations are better understood there is nothing to say about it.
I'm not sure that statements like this one actually require a comment, but I'll err on the side of posting this time.
It is not that we don't understand the "explanations", it is that they do not work. Your insistent on relying on "illusion" in lieu of understanding, which you postulate might come at some point, is an express admission that the facts are completely unimportant, and that your current position is held for the sole reason of self persuasion. You cannot explain, therefore it is an illusion, until it can be explained? Then not an illusion? Really?
For people without such needs, given that all that is required of Creationists is making stuff up, the lack of a mechanical explanation is fairly telling. To everyone except a person engaging in 'self-persuasion' the current state of affairs would be evidence that the 'mechanical sorting' explanation is wrong.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 4:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 7:39 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 116 of 1163 (786300)
06-19-2016 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by NoNukes
06-19-2016 6:47 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
It is not that we don't understand the "explanations", it is that they do not work.
I wasn't talking about YOU understanding, I was simply saying the mechanics aren't yet understood... by anybody. Your ability to get everything I say completely wrong is truly amazing. Everything you say in that post is bizarrely wrong. Truly remarkable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by NoNukes, posted 06-19-2016 6:47 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by NoNukes, posted 06-19-2016 9:07 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 1163 (786304)
06-19-2016 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
06-19-2016 7:39 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
wasn't talking about YOU understanding, I was simply saying the mechanics aren't yet understood... by anybody
Sigh. What you are saying simply means that the made up mechanics are not complete. As was indicated in the OP, YEC folks say flood and then make up stories, which you acknowledge are all wrong. Meanwhile, the mechanics of floods and water are well understood.
And beyond that, what is the impact? You are still maintaining that what those mechanics attempt to explain is mere illusion based on the failure to explain them in YEC terms. How is that statement any less true based on the details of what you don't understand? At least it would be honest to simply wait on the details. But what you admit doing is simply denying the facts by calling them illusion up until a better YEC story is available.
And no, I am not guessing. You already told us.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 7:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 06-20-2016 1:40 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 118 of 1163 (786307)
06-20-2016 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by NoNukes
06-19-2016 9:07 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
I wasn't talking about YOU understanding, I was simply saying the mechanics aren't yet understood... by anybody
Sigh. What you are saying simply means that the made up mechanics are not complete. As was indicated in the OP, YEC folks say flood and then make up stories, which you acknowledge are all wrong.
I'd say we make more or less educated guesses about what happened, which anti-Floodists are incapable of doing because they follow their prejudices and are always looking for some way to debunk the idea. And I don't recall saying any of it is "all wrong," I believe I said there is merit to all the ideas I've heard. We KNOW the reasons for the fossil order have to do with mechanics and not evolution from one to another, which is preposterous no matter how plausible the order seems. It's preposterous, it's absurd, especially when you realize how fast change occurs within Species, while hundreds of millions of years may be assigned to a given time period. Meanwhile, some lab tests have been done that demonstrate that sediments deposit rapidly in fast-moving water. That's really more than the evo side has of objective evidence. But still it's true that it isn't known what principles explain how different creatures were carried and deposited in the strata. Just that something like that must be what happened. The absurdity of time periods being characterized by different kinds of rock ought in itself to disqualify the prevailing theories, everybody ought to laugh at that idea. Only some kind of mechanical explanation could apply.
Meanwhile, the mechanics of floods and water are well understood.
That is really a pathetic claim. "Floods and water?" Utter nonsense. NOBODY knows how a WORLDWIDE Flood would have behaved. It would be nothing like any local flood. And water washing over land from all directions at once isn't going to be explained by whatever we know about how water behaves on a local scale or even in a single tsunami event. It's like you refuse to try to imagine the actual scale of the thing.
And beyond that, what is the impact? You are still maintaining that what those mechanics attempt to explain is mere illusion based on the failure to explain them in YEC terms.
What? The supposed order of the fossil record is an illusion, period, not "based on" whether we can understand the Flood in mechanical terms or not. We still want to know if we can how the creatures were transported. Again, the OE explanation for the separate kinds of rock is absurd; the OE explanation for millions of years of evolution is absurd. We don't NEED to know the mechanics of the Flood in order to make those arguments.
How is that statement any less true based on the details of what you don't understand?
What? It's NOT "based on" anything I understand or don't understand about the mechanics of the Flood. Where do you get such ideas?
At least it would be honest to simply wait on the details. But what you admit doing is simply denying the facts by calling them illusion up until a better YEC story is available.
Where have I "admitted" any such thing??? No, creationists have constructed many arguments against Evo Theory that have NO dependence whatever on knowing the mechanics of the Flood, and I have certainly done so myself. Where are you getting your nonsensical accusations? I've honestly said we don't understand the mechanical explanations of all these things, and you turn that into some kind of dishonesty? You have a very strange imagination. You seem to take everything I say, even the most innocent possible statement, and try to turn it against me. That seems to be what you do to Percy too, as he is constantly complaining about.
And no, I am not guessing. You already told us.
Guessing about what? Told you what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by NoNukes, posted 06-19-2016 9:07 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2016 2:32 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 120 by NoNukes, posted 06-20-2016 3:50 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 121 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-20-2016 11:49 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 119 of 1163 (786308)
06-20-2016 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Faith
06-20-2016 1:40 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
quote:
I'd say we make more or less educated guesses about what happened, which anti-Floodists are incapable of doing because they follow their prejudices and are always looking for some way to debunk the idea.
I guess that you could describe honesty as a prejudice, but doing so says more about you than about your opponents. There is a difference between making educated guesses and desperately making up nonsense to hide from the truth.
quote:
We KNOW the reasons for the fossil order have to do with mechanics and not evolution from one to another, which is preposterous no matter how plausible the order seems
If you have actually paid attention to this discussion then you would know - truly know - that mechanics cannot be the answer. It has no merit but a superficial plausibility which vanishes in the face of the facts.
Honestly seeking the truth requires that you accept these facts instead of sneering at them, secure in the worship of your anti-Christian cult.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 06-20-2016 1:40 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 1163 (786309)
06-20-2016 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Faith
06-20-2016 1:40 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
I'd say we make more or less educated guesses about what happened, which anti-Floodists are incapable of doing because they follow their prejudices
Coming from you, such a statement is laughable. You are fixated on having a single result. Scientist are not actually trying to active disprove any particular idea, and it still turns out that the evidence does not support a flood.
and are always looking for some way to debunk the idea.
Debunking is what everyone should be doing before they pronounce that their idea actually works. It is a step that you yourself never take.
And I don't recall saying any of it is "all wrong,"
So saying that there is no way to explain the order of fossils in the face of attempts to do just that is not equivalent to saying that those who profess to have an explanation are wrong. Sure seems so to me.
What? The supposed order of the fossil record is an illusion, period, not "based on" whether we can understand the Flood in mechanical terms or not.
Order and timing are not the entire issue. The rest of the issue is what is found with what, and of course that neither complies with Great Flood explanations nor is it an illusion. Perhaps you should go back and read more of Dr. Adequate's posts.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 06-20-2016 1:40 AM Faith has not replied

  
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