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Author Topic:   Can fundamentalists explain Job 26:12-13 for me?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 16 of 114 (787211)
07-07-2016 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
07-07-2016 12:29 PM


Re: quote mining is really unproductive.
From Message 10 Phat...
quote:
Job is a morality tale dealing with some pretty profound questions like why do bad things happen to good people and when that does happen how should a theist of his period respond.
AbE: All of the evidence shows that different cultures from all over the world and all periods of time came up with similar creation myths. One recurring theme is some serpent or dragon or great fish that represents chaos and slaying the critter brings about order. In addition regional cultures adopted and exported the myths to and from their neighbors. Who has priority on some concept or image really seems irrelevant when discussing a story where such passages are used only as a plot device.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 07-07-2016 12:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-07-2016 2:25 PM jar has replied
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 07-07-2016 6:21 PM jar has replied
 Message 114 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-29-2017 4:35 PM jar has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 17 of 114 (787212)
07-07-2016 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
07-07-2016 11:38 AM


Re: quote mining is really unproductive.
I said this.
quote:
Well, I said it covered the period before biological life was formed. And I didn't say that a Creation Myth is the exact same thing as a biology text (especially not a modern one). I don't see why it isn't a creation myth. You must have a very strict criteria, that's for sure.
Jar then said that my creation myth issues were "just a total irrelevancy, a pointless exercise" and with wacked up contextual issues as it relates to Job.
But, this scholar ,below , feels it is important.
quote:
We have established that there is an ancient myth embedded in the Bible that Yahweh conquered the forces of chaos, personified as Ym and Liwytn. However, we have yet to discuss the different contexts in which thismyth is alluded to in the Bible.
....
This story is not only referred to in Genesis — we have seen this notion already in Job 26:13, that the skies were ‘made fair’ with the defeat of Ym and Rahab.
Academia.edu
The contextual issues usually involve proving that Psalms 89:10 and Job 26:12-13 belong to the time of creation (and not some later time).
Google
I did this search trying to find the Anchor Bible Dictionary quote about Psalms 89 clearly being in the context of creation (not pasted here). It is in the logos discussion at the top of the google search. I found the above scholarly article (pasted in part).
Jar seems to be thinking that Job should never be used to see what the Israelites thought literally, since the point of job is a morality tale or something (others say it was "just poetry" and Job was using his poet's license) That is like saying that Enuma Elish shouldn't be used since it was simply used to exalt Marduk and to establish his cult.
We still have a primordial dragon myth on our hands and Job mentioned it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 07-07-2016 11:38 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 18 of 114 (787215)
07-07-2016 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
07-07-2016 12:47 PM


What is really productive?
quote:
All of the evidence shows that different cultures from all over the world and all periods of time came up with similar creation myths. One recurring theme is some serpent or dragon or great fish that represents chaos and slaying the critter brings about order. In addition regional cultures adopted and exported the myths to and from their neighbors. Who has priority on some concept or image really seems irrelevant when discussing a story where such passages are used only as a plot device.
The Canaanite texts of Lothan (or Littanu or whatever)are a clear cognate of Psalms 74 except for the name of the God doing the killing of the multi-headed beast. The Ugaritic texts pre-date 1200 BCE, which is before the Psalm's text.
Enuma Elish could date as late as 1074 BCE, which means that parts of the Bible (including Genesis 49) could actually be older.
I was more interested in what exactly the Biblical texts were saying though. Not chronological priority issues and who stole from whom. (most of the worlds creation myths can't be dated at all however, and could be just a few hundred years old, so get suspicious when one claims they are old)
Also.
The "plot device" claim hasn't been demonstrated. Really, why shouldn't we assume it was a belief that was taken literally? The text could very well have been based on a real, literal, rock solid historically accurate belief (with regards to the primeval age and the associated "creation")by the author of Job

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 07-07-2016 12:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 07-07-2016 4:01 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 19 of 114 (787217)
07-07-2016 3:56 PM


Back to a question I asked earlier
Here is a post, from another poster, that I noticed Phat agreed with.
quote:
Note that these are poetic passages. This is poetic imagery, saying that the true God is more powerful than the gods and fearful monsters of the other nations. The OT has quite a few such polemical statements against the gods of Egypt and Canaan.
....
I think these are just poetic ways of saying that the true God is stronger than the gods of Egypt and Canaan.
I responded with the questions.
"But, can the same be said of Genesis 1? Verses 6-8 talk of the firmament (atmosphere?) being placed to separate the waters above from the waters below. Is that poetry?"
"Is the sudden creation of man - as opposed to a millions of years evolutionary process - also part of the poetry and polemic?"
"Would a 1000 BCE Israelite know how to distinguish the unhistorical lines from the literal?"
Is every pagan concept that gets mentioned there ONLY a polemic, and not meant to be historical?
Placing the stars in the firmament or atmosphere is just a polemical way to describe things? Just like the waters being above the firmament or atmosphere. It came from ancient middle eastern beliefs, as we see in Enuma Elish. The biblical text was just a polemic so as to overthrow pagan concepts?
quote:
136. While he divided the flesh of the ..., and devised a cunning plan.
137. He split her up like a flat fish into two halves;
138. One half of her he stablished as a covering for heaven.
....
140. And bade them not to let her waters come forth.
141. He passed through the heavens, he surveyed the regions (thereof),
142. And over against the Deep he set the dwelling of Nudimmud.
143. And the lord measured the structure of the Deep,
144. And he founded E-shara, a mansion like unto it.
145. The mansion E-shara which he created as heaven,
146. He caused Anu, Bl, and Ea in their districts to inhabit.
1. He.(i.e. Marduk) made the stations for the great gods;
2. The stars, their images, as the stars of the Zodiac, he fixed.
I asked if the ancient Israelites were let in on the so called "plot devices" and "polemical references" to unhistorical and unscientific pagan concepts.
Martin Luther sure wasn't
quote:
Lectures on Genesis
Martin Luther
"Indeed, it is more likely that the bodies of the stars, like that of the sun, are round, and that they are fastened to the firmament like globes of fire, to shed light at night, each according to its endowment and its creation."
Martin Luther, Luther’s Works. Vol 1. Lectures on Genesis, ed. Jaroslav Pelikan (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1958), p.42
Then
quote:
Luther
ibid. p.30
We Christians must be different from the philosophers [i.e. scientists] in the way we think about the causes of these things. And if some are beyond our comprehension (like those before us concerning the waters above the heavens), we must believe them and admit our lack of knowledge rather than either wickedly deny them or presumptuously interpret them in conformity with our understanding.
If a biblical text is proven to be unscientific, then it is just a "polemic against the pagans" or "poetic language this is simply a plot device".
Gods, monsters, and cosmological conceptions that are now seen as unscientific were never meant to be literal history. So it goes now.
Or are the cosmological conceptions in Genesis accurate? We now hear about "vapor canopies" which were able to project the stars into our field of vision so as to match the Genesis text with "science". A creationist Carl Baugh said that the early "firmament" might have actually sung the stars into the field of our senses in an acoustic way (I heard that somewhere).
It's just the mention of pagan primeval monsters that is polemical I suppose? Genesis is both polemical and scientifically accurate at the same time?
When does the mythological creature referencing polemical tactic end and the straight literal historical record begin to be used in the text?
And when the heck were the ancient Israelites "in the know" when it came to the tactic? Nevermind the early, not to mention medieval, Christians.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 114 (787218)
07-07-2016 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by LamarkNewAge
07-07-2016 2:25 PM


Re: What is really productive?
LamarkNewAge writes:
The "plot device" claim hasn't been demonstrated. Really, why shouldn't we assume it was a belief that was taken literally? The text could very well have been based on a real, literal, rock solid historically accurate belief (with regards to the primeval age and the associated "creation")by the author of Job
As I have pointed out above, regardless of whether or not anyone held real, literal, rock solid historically accurate belief (with regards to the primeval age and the associated "creation") conveying that belief was not the purpose of the Book of Job.
Historically the Book of Job was included in the Poets and like Proverbs and Ecclesiates part of the Books of Wisdom, the Ketuvim. It is 42 chapters long and you are picking two lines out of only one chapter and trying to weave whole cloth.
It don't work.
In addition, to even find any reference in those two lines to creation or some primal chaos you need to even cherry pick the translation.
Here is the passage from the American Standard Version:
quote:
Job 26:12-13American Standard Version (ASV)
12
He "note a"stirreth up the sea with his power,
And by his understanding he smiteth through Rahab.
13
By his Spirit the heavens are "note b"garnished;
His hand hath pierced the "note c"swift serpent.
Footnotes:
Job 26:12 Or, stilleth
Job 26:13 Hebrew beauty.
Job 26:13 Or, fleeing. Or, gliding
Douay-Rheims:
quote:
Job 26:12-13Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
12 By his power the seas are suddenly gathered together, and his wisdom has struck the proud one.
13 His spirit hath adorned the heavens, and his obstetric hand brought forth the winding serpent.
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
KJV:
quote:
Job 26:12-13Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
12
He divideth the sea with his power,
and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud.
13
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens;
his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
I will post even more if needed.
The important point is that Job is a long poetic (and almost certainly incomplete) story about why bad things happen to good people and how theist should respond to their god character when shich things happen.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-07-2016 2:25 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-07-2016 5:12 PM jar has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 21 of 114 (787219)
07-07-2016 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
07-07-2016 4:01 PM


translations of Job.
quote:
In addition, to even find any reference in those two lines to creation or some primal chaos you need to even cherry pick the translation.
Here is an English translation of the Septuagint (which is super-important when it comes to Job)
quote:
12He has calmed the sea with his might, and by his wisdom the whale has been overthrown.
13And the barriers of heaven fear him, and by a command he has slain the apostate dragon.
Job 26 Brenton's Septuagint Translation
Job 26:12 Hebrew issues
Job 26:12 Hebrew Text Analysis
Hebrew Concordance: ma -- 3 Occurrences
Job 26:13 Hebrew issues
Job 26:13 Hebrew Text Analysis
Hebrew Concordance: llh -- 1 Occurrence
I have only quoted from the NRSV till my Septuagint translation.
I use the NRSV because is seems to be somewhat neutral when it comes to translating verses in order to match theological beliefs and also because is uses the 27th (?) edition of Nestle-Allen while the NIV (and most others) use only the 21st edition. The World Council of Churches is the largest protestant organization in the world and they attempted to have a scholarly translation.
The NRSV plus Septuagint aren't exactly the translations to go to when one attempts to cherry pick. I'll use an example later to show you what the NIV does. I'll think of one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 07-07-2016 4:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 07-07-2016 9:06 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 22 of 114 (787220)
07-07-2016 5:22 PM


An example of NIV dishonesty is Jeremiah 7:22
First the issue.
quote:
Exodus 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine
13 and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.
Jeremiah testifies to the fact that burnt offerings and sacrifices were not ordered on the day Israel left Egypt.
Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.
This is in contradiction to the text of Exodus 12:43 to 13:16. To free the people from this bondage is the task of Amos, Isaiah and Jeremiah.
Amos 5:22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: Neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.
24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.
25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?
Forbidden
The NIV adds words and changes the text so as to match the Exodus text. But the Hebrew words are nowhere to be found in any text.
Jeremiah 7:22-24 NIV - For when I brought your ancestors out - Bible Gateway
The NIV, despite itself, seems to admit that there is a contradiction (albeit in a dishonest way) when the text gets altered in translation.
The NIV is a go to translation for quote mining to change the original text's meaning.
There are others for sure, but the NIV is amazingly dishonest.
Not the NRSV. Especially not the NRSV when it is used alongside Septuagint translations.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 23 of 114 (787221)
07-07-2016 6:01 PM


More on translations of Job 26:11-12. NIV and NASB
quote:
NIV
"He stirs up the sea with His power,
And by His understanding He breaks up the storm.
By His Spirit He adorned the heavens;
His hand pierced the fleeing serpent."
NASB
"He quieted the sea with His power,
And by His understanding He shattered Rahab.
"By His breath the heavens are cleared;
His hand has pierced the fleeing serpent..."
Here is a scholarly translation and commentary on text (scroll up slightly for beginning of coverage of the area of interest)
God's Battle with the Monster: A Study in Biblical Imagery - Mary K. Wakeman - Google Books
Here is a piece of Catholic endorsed scholarship
quote:
Collegeville Bible Commentary
NIHIL OBSTAT: Robert C. Harren, J. C. L.
IMPRIMATUR: +Jerome Hanus, O. S. B.
Bishop St Cloud Minnesota
October 19, 1988
(COPYRIGHT 1992 by The Order of St. Benedict, Inc., Collegeville, Minnesota)
p.690
Verses 12-13 name the sea dragon, the mythological figure for chaos: God stirs up Sea (better than NAB the sea), crushes Rahab, and splits open the dragon.
Fundamentalist scholarship below
quote:
Illustrated dictionary of the bible
HERBERT LOCKYER, SR., EDITOR
with F.F. Bruce and R.K. Harrison
( Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1986)
.
Scores of leading evangelical scholars contributed articles for this project.
.
-The Publishers
.
p.898
RAHAB THE DRAGON [RAY hab] (agitated)-a mythological sea monster or dragon representing the evil forces of chaos that God subdued by His creative power.
....
God’s smiting of Rahab is described in Job 26:12 (NIV) to signify God’s power over the chaos of primeval waters at the Creation. The NKJV translates as the storm for Rahab.
See fuller quotes of the last 2 books here
EvC Forum: Evidence of a seas monster myth in Genesis 1? Even fundi scholars admit so(?)!
Enough of this quote mining business. (accusations and such)
Sorry for the large number of quotes.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 114 (787222)
07-07-2016 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
07-07-2016 12:47 PM


Re: quote mining is really unproductive.
My belief, of course, is that Job and the Creator of all seen and unseen had a literal conversation....comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 07-07-2016 12:47 PM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 114 (787223)
07-07-2016 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by LamarkNewAge
07-07-2016 5:22 PM


Re: An example of NIV dishonesty is Jeremiah 7:22
This may be helpful:
Methods of Translation
quote:
  • Literal translation. Attempts to keep the exact words and phrases of the original. It is faithful to the original text, but sometimes hard to understand. Keeps a constant historical distance. Examples: King James Version (KJV), New American Standard Bible (NASB).
  • Dynamic equivalent (thought for thought) translation. Attempts to keep a constant historical distance with regard to history and facts, but updates the writing style and grammar. Examples: New International Version (NIV), Revised English Bible (REB).
  • Free translation (paraphrase). Translates the ideas from the original text but without being constrained by the original words or language. Seeks to eliminate historical distance. Readable, but possibly not precise. Examples: The Living Bible (TLB), The Message.

  • Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-07-2016 5:22 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

      
    LamarkNewAge
    Member (Idle past 738 days)
    Posts: 2236
    Joined: 12-22-2015


    Message 26 of 114 (787226)
    07-07-2016 7:05 PM


    I got translations mixed up
    Job 26:12-13 NIV - By his power he churned up the sea; by - Bible Gateway
    Here is a link where one can look at all the translations for Job 26:12-13
    I think I quoted the NKJV above and said it was the NIV.
    The NIV might be the second. Not the NASB
    Computer was stalling badly when I was pasting.
    Here is NASB
    quote:
    Job 26:12-13New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    12 He quieted the sea with His power,
    And by His understanding He shattered Rahab.
    13 By His breath the heavens are [a]cleared;
    His hand has pierced the fleeing serpent.
    NKJV
    quote:
    Job 26:12-13New King James Version (NKJV)
    12 He stirs up the sea with His power,
    And by His understanding He breaks up the storm.
    13 By His Spirit He adorned the heavens;
    His hand pierced the fleeing serpent.
    New King James Version (NKJV)

      
    NoNukes
    Inactive Member


    Message 27 of 114 (787229)
    07-07-2016 7:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by LamarkNewAge
    07-07-2016 11:15 AM


    Re: Text of Job 26.
    Job isn't in the first pages of the Bible, that's for sure. Now Job might be using stories from diverse sources but he said that the hand of God pierced the primeval serpent
    That would not seem to be much of a rebuttal. Job may have believed in a bunch of stuff that is not described in Genesis. If he said that God was greater than Set, would that, in your mind, elevate Set towards reality or to the same level as the Creation story as told in Genesis.
    Fundamentalists use verse 7 to say that God placed a spherical earth into empty space.
    Fundy's say a lot of cute stuff. They are just adorable. Yeah, verse 7 is clearly a description of a creation level event.

    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
    If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-07-2016 11:15 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 28 of 114 (787233)
    07-07-2016 9:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
    07-07-2016 6:21 PM


    Re: quote mining is really unproductive.
    Phat writes:
    My belief, of course, is that Job and the Creator of all seen and unseen had a literal conversation....comments?
    And the evidence for that is absolutely as good as the evidence that Harry Potter had a literal conversation with Professor Snape or that between Echo and Juno (or Hera).

    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by Phat, posted 07-07-2016 6:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 29 of 114 (787235)
    07-07-2016 9:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 21 by LamarkNewAge
    07-07-2016 5:12 PM


    Re: translations of Job.
    And as I have said, even if true it is still just an irrelevancy and distraction from the subject matter of Job.

    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 21 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-07-2016 5:12 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-07-2016 9:59 PM jar has replied

      
    LamarkNewAge
    Member (Idle past 738 days)
    Posts: 2236
    Joined: 12-22-2015


    Message 30 of 114 (787238)
    07-07-2016 9:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 29 by jar
    07-07-2016 9:06 PM


    Re: translations of Job.
    quote:
    And as I have said, even if true it is still just an irrelevancy and distraction from the subject matter of Job
    Earlier you were obsessed with the King James translation.
    Here is the NKJV translation.
    quote:
    Job 26
    12He stirs up the sea with His power,
    And by His understanding He breaks up the storm.
    13 By His Spirit He adorned the heavens;
    His hand pierced the fleeing serpent.
    "storm" was Rahab.
    This fits even (slightly) better with the point I am trying to make. Tiamat was the preexisting sea and primordial abyss.
    Here is the Hebrew cognate word from the same root. Tehom and it was in the first few verses of Genesis 1. Here is the fundi dictionary definition.
    quote:
    Illustrated dictionary of the bible
    HERBERT LOCKYER, SR., EDITOR
    with F.F. Bruce and R.K. Harrison
    ( Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1986)
    p.293
    DEEP, THE-a vast space, expanse, or abyss. He term is used in Scripture in several ways. The first use occurs in Genesis 1:2: The earth was without form, and void, and darkness was on the face of the deep (Gen. 1:2). The word may refer in this phrase to the chaos existing at creation, or it may indicate the vast expanse of waters which covered the earth at creation (Ps. 104:6; Prov. 8:28).
    Remember that it said Rahab represented the primordial chaos
    quote:
    ibid.
    p.898
    RAHAB THE DRAGON [RAY hab] (agitated)-a mythological sea monster or dragon representing the evil forces of chaos that God subdued by His creative power.
    ....
    God’s smiting of Rahab is described in Job 26:12 (NIV) to signify God’s power over the chaos of primeval waters at the Creation. The NKJV translates as the storm for Rahab.
    But back to the NKJV and 26:13a
    "By His Spirit He adorned the heavens"
    That fits even better with Enuma Elish, doesn't it?
    quote:
    101. He seized the spear and burst her belly,
    102. He severed her inward parts, he pierced (her) heart.
    ....
    136. While he divided the flesh of the ..., and devised a cunning plan.
    137. He split her up like a flat fish into two halves;
    138. One half of her he stablished as a covering for heaven.
    139. He fixed a bolt, he stationed a watchman,
    140. And bade them not to let her waters come forth.
    141. He passed through the heavens, he surveyed the regions (thereof),
    142. And over against the Deep he set the dwelling of Nudimmud.
    143. And the lord measured the structure of the Deep,
    144. And he founded E-shara, a mansion like unto it.
    145. The mansion E-shara which he created as heaven,
    146. He caused Anu, Bl, and Ea in their districts to inhabit.
    1. He.(i.e. Marduk) made the stations for the great gods;
    2. The stars, their images, as the stars of the Zodiac, he fixed.
    3. He ordained the year and into sections he divided it;
    4. For the twelve months he fixed three stars.
    The New King James version has Rahab translated as"the storm" but then says the "heavens" were "adorned" as the "serpent" was "pierced". All in verse 13 of Job 26. In Enuma Elish the tail of Tiamat was used to make the Milky Way (I need to find a better, and more complete translation of Enuma Elish). Tiamat was the primordial sea and a serpent. The "Sea" god Yam was mentioned in Job 26:12a and Rahab was crushed in verse 12b.
    It fits even better with the NKJV except you need to understand that "storm" it Rahab.
    The parallels are striking. Job 26:12-13, Enuma Elish, and Genesis 1 all come together.
    In Genesis 1, the intelligent biological life didn't exist until AFTER the placing of the lights in the firmament (which Tiamat was used for in Enuma Elish), just like in Job 26, where the heavens were "adorned" and intelligent life still wasn't created yet. Just like Enuma Elish. The primordial serpent wasn't mentioned in Genesis 1 but the deep/tehom was. cognate with Tiamat and parallel to Rahab. The dragon was the deep/primordial waters, firmament, stars, ALL in Enuma Elish. The chaos matter that became the raw material for the universe.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 29 by jar, posted 07-07-2016 9:06 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 32 by jar, posted 07-08-2016 8:11 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

      
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