Can fundamentalists explain Job 26:12-13 for me?

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Job may have believed in a bunch of stuff that is not described in Genesis. If he said that God was greater than Set, would that, in your mind, elevate Set towards reality or to the same level as the Creation story as told in Genesis.

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It (Job) mentioned a preexisting dragon (that was pierced) as probably the material to adorn the heavens. It was pierced at the same time as the heavens were made.If it (Job or wherever in the scripture) said that Set was the material for the universe, then that would be another thing.The devil is in the details.

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Fundy's say a lot of cute stuff. They are just adorable. Yeah, verse 7 is clearly a description of a creation level event.

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Job 26:7?It is a adorning of the universe with the earth, right?26:7-13 do seem related to the creation of Genesis, in a slightly different tradition (textual or otherwise).Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Even if true they are still simply irrelevant and just another cause to miss the whole point of Job. And again even what you post does not support a primal serpent. There are actual serpents you know and they are far more common than any primal serpent.

A serpent.There is no dragon in Job.And you continue to simply quote mine, to take small sections out of context.I agree that is also what fundamentalists and so called "Biblical Christians" do but it is as pitiful and silly when you do it as when they do it.

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Even if true they are still simply irrelevant and just another cause to miss the whole point of Job. And again even what you post does not support a primal serpent. There are actual serpents you know and they are far more common than any primal serpent.

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Even fundamentalist scholars disagree with you.I'll quote it again.

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Illustrated dictionary of the bible
HERBERT LOCKYER, SR., EDITOR
with F.F. Bruce and R.K. Harrison
( Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1986)

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p.898
RAHAB THE DRAGON [RAY hab] (agitated)-a mythological sea monster or dragon representing the evil forces of chaos that God subdued by His creative power.
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God’s smiting of Rahab is described in Job 26:12 (NIV) to signify God’s power over the chaos of primeval waters at the Creation. The NKJV translates as the storm for Rahab.

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You are hardly standing on strong ground in your statements.And, since you ignored the documentation the first time, I'll remind you that it is parallel to "the deep" from the first verses of the Bible.

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ibid.
p.293
DEEP, THE-a vast space, expanse, or abyss. He term is used in Scripture in several ways. The first use occurs in Genesis 1:2: The earth was without form, and void, and darkness was on the face of the deep (Gen. 1:2). The word may refer in this phrase to the chaos existing at creation, or it may indicate the vast expanse of waters which covered the earth at creation (Ps. 104:6; Prov. 8:28).

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post 33 of jar says:

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A serpent.
There is no dragon in Job.

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And you continue to simply quote mine, to take small sections out of context.

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I agree that is also what fundamentalists and so called "Biblical Christians" do but it is as pitiful and silly when you do it as when they do it.

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I am assuming that a primeval serpent mentioned as a parallel on par with the adorning/making of the heavens (as the NRSV and NKJV have it) would be a very large serpent (otherwise known as a dragon) at that.You first accused me of quote mining because I failed, in my various posts, to quote from the couple of several hundred year old Bible translations you dug up. (granted you also were upset that I had the audacity to not ignore just a few verses - 26:12-13 - in Job. The fact that I acknowledge the relevance of Job 26:12-13 seems to have you questioning my approach)Here is jar's post 20.

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[jar]
In addition, to even find any reference in those two lines to creation or some primal chaos you need to even cherry pick the translation.

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He then went on to quote the c.1890 ASV (which the c. 1950 RSV was the direct successor and the 1990 NRSV was the successor to both), the 1611 King James, and the 200-300 year old Douay-Rheims to prove that I was quote mining.I either pay too much attention to the text of Job or I "cherry pick" the translation because I ignore the ASV and instead quote from it's grandson successor the NRSV. And I quoted the NEW King James Version of the last half-century too btw. I admit that I don't know what the actual successor of the Douay-Rheims is. Why do we have to use translations that almost date back to the middle ages anyway?

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Collegeville Bible Commentary
NIHIL OBSTAT: Robert C. Harren, J. C. L.
IMPRIMATUR: +Jerome Hanus, O. S. B.
Bishop St Cloud Minnesota
October 19, 1988
(COPYRIGHT 1992 by The Order of St. Benedict, Inc., Collegeville, Minnesota)
p.690
God then marks out the horizon of the ocean, which is the place where we see the separation of night and day (v. 10). The cosmic pillars (v.11) hold up the heavens, that is, the dish-shaped dome (or firmament) that keeps out the waters above (see Gen 1:6-8). God’s rebuke (v.11) is the storm-god’s thunder or war cry, which strikes fear in the heart of God’s foes (see Ps. 104:7-9). Verses 12-13 name the sea dragon, the mythological figure for chaos: God stirs up Sea (better than NAB the sea), crushes Rahab, and splits open the dragon.

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Sorry for having to quote it again, but jar seems to just want to make pronouncements - based on little more than the weight of his own authority -, and ignore every last bit of academic documentation I present from the qualified sources.

Yes I disagree with what you and the scholars you quote say, not based on my own authority but rather on what is actually written and the fact that I see quote mining and taking pieces parts out of context as dishonest, irrelevant and a total waste of time meant only to obscure and pervert the Bible stories real purpose.

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Yes I disagree with what you and the scholars you quote say, not based on my own authority but rather on what is actually written

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Here is the NKJV again.

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Job 26
12He stirs up the sea with His power,
And by His understanding He breaks up the storm.
13 By His Spirit He adorned the heavens;
His hand pierced the fleeing serpent.

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"he breaks up Rahab, by his spirit he adorned the heavens (stars surely referenced), his hand pierced the fleeing serpent"

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and the fact that I see quote mining and taking pieces parts out of context as dishonest, irrelevant and a total waste of time meant only to obscure and pervert the Bible stories real purpose.

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I'm glad you feel there was some grand purpose in the book of Job, but your "big picture" obsession hardly means that the actual lines of the text should be ignored.You have some strange definitions for terms like "out of context" and "quote mining".

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Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

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-- Lewis Carroll

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Don't over-think it.

"Probably the material to adorn the heavens". Probably based on what reasoning or calculation?And where does the text say that the dragon was pierced at the same time the heavens were made. Again, the verses in question describe God's might works, only some of which are creation related.Example:

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8: He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.

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Not a creation event.

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9 He holds back the face of his throne and spreads his cloud upon it.

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Not a creation event but an ongoing state of affairs expressed in present tense.

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10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.

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A creation event.

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11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

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Not a creation event. A statement of power based on God's current circumstance.

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12 By his power he stilled the sea; by his understanding he shattered Rahab.

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Who knows when this happened. The seas grow rough even today at times.

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By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

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Not sure what to make of that... Garnished means something other than created although it may describe a happening during creation. Not sure about the rest of the verse. Some poetry may not be worth the time and trouble to unravel. The story of Job is about something else entirely. The verses given here are to allow us to appreciate God's power as expressed by Job in a way that his peers would understand. Adorning? Why do you call it that? I suppose anything God made could be considered an adorning.

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He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

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"Probably the material to adorn the heavens". Probably based on what reasoning or calculation?

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And where does the text say that the dragon was pierced at the same time the heavens were made. Again, the verses in question describe God's might works, only some of which are creation related.

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Because the making/adorning/furnishing of the heavens is placed right after Rahab is smote and right before the spearing of the serpent. Right smack in the middle is the making of the heavens. The relation is clear.

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Again, the verses in question describe God's might works, only some of which are creation related.

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"8: He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them."

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Not a creation event.

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"9 He holds back the face of his throne and spreads his cloud upon it."

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Not a creation event but an ongoing state of affairs expressed in present tense.

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"10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end."

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A creation event.

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"11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof."

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Not a creation event. A statement of power based on God's current circumstance.

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"12 By his power he stilled the sea; by his understanding he shattered Rahab."

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Who knows when this happened. The seas grow rough even today at times.

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"By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent."

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Not sure what to make of that... Garnished means something other than created although it may describe a happening during creation. Not sure about the rest of the verse. Some poetry may not be worth the time and trouble to unravel. The story of Job is about something else entirely. The verses given here are to allow us to appreciate God's power as expressed by Job in a way that his peers would understand.

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Genesis 1 says God placed the stars in the firmament, so "placing" might be the standard.Your translation is old and/or bad. It looks like the KJV 1611.Here is the Yale Anchor Bible Dictionary scholarship.

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John Day, "Rahab (Dragon)"
vol. 5, The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary, ed. David Noel Freedman
(New York: Doubleday, 1992),
610-11.

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RAHAB (DRAGON) [Heb rahab (רַהַב)]. The name of a mythological sea serpent or dragon, lit. boisterous one, referred to a number of times in the OT (Ps 87:4; 89:11Eng 89:10; Job 9:13; 26:12; Isa 30:7; 51:9). The name of this monster has not hitherto been discovered in any extrabiblical text. In the OT, Rahab functions similarly to Leviathan, an originally Canaanite chaos monster, but whether these are to be identified or are separate monsters in origin is not entirely clear.

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Rahab appears in two different contexts in the OT. On the one hand, it appears as a sea monster defeated at the time of creation (Ps 89:11Eng 89:10; Job 9:13; 26:12), and on the other as a metaphorical name for Egypt (Ps 87:4; Isa 30:7). In Isa 51:9 the two usages may be fused.

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Ps 89:10—11Eng 89:9—10 declares to Yahweh, You rule the surging of the sea: when its waves rise, you still them. You did crush Rahab with a mortal blow, you did scatter your enemies with your mighty arm. The following (vv 12—13Eng 11—12) clearly spell out the creation context of this conflict, so that it is necessary to reject the view of those scholars who see here an allusion to the Exodus or, as some would maintain, to both Exodus and creation. The references to God’s conflict with Rahab in both Job 9:13 and 26:12 also appear to be set in creation contexts. Job 26:12—13 reads: By his power he stilled the sea; by his understanding he smote Rahab. By his wind the heavens were made fair; his hand pierced the twisting serpent (nāhā bārı̄aḥ).

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You quoted me asking.
"It is a adorning of the universe with the earth, right?"Then you said.

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Adorning? Why do you call it that? I suppose anything God made could be considered an adorning.

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"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing."

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I called it that because jar preferred the KJV translation as somehow authoritative. So I used the NKJV "adorning" instead of "made".

You gotta stop misrepresenting the facts. jar did not ever say, hint, intimate or assert that he preferred the KJV or any particular translation, rather jar has said that quote mining, regardless of the version, translation or edition and trying to compare passages taken out of context and even from different stories is dishonest and no productive and just the typical con game for fundamentalists of any streak.

Hi LNA Where do you get Rahab from?I am a fundamentalists and the first thing you have to do is know what the original text says to understand it. Or you have to use a good translation.What you are quoting is not a translation of רהב it is supposed to be a transliteration but they used the Masoretic text which has vowels and the original did not have vowels.A true transliteration would be Rhb.רהב means: 1.pride, blusterer.Most of the garbage you have written has absolutely nothing to do with your OP.You asked for a fundamentalist to explain Job 26:12-13.Job is answering Bildad the Shuhite in chapter 26 and asking him questions. He divideth the sea has reference to the single land mass that appeared in Genesis 1:9 when God gathered the water to one place.He divided that land mass in the days of Peleg.
Which divided the one sea. In the last half of the verse Job is deriding Bildad about his pride.In verse 13 the crooked ברח meaning 1.fleeing נחש serpent meaning 1.serpent, snake.I hope that explanation satisfies you and if it don't you are free to believe anything your mind can imagine it says.God Bless,

Just out of curiosity, do you believe in Zoroastrianism to any degree?

Hi NoNukes The Hebrew word שפרה translated garnished means: 1. fairness, clearness.This took place when God cleared the heavens of the condition they are found in @ Genesis 1:2.There are only 3 creation events in the Bible Genesis 1:1, (heavens and earth) 1:21, (great fish or whatever you want to call it for Jonah's 3 days and 3 nights) and 1:27 (mankind, male and female).Any other events are just God doing work and making things to happen.God Bless,

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Where do you get Rahab from?

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I am a fundamentalists and the first thing you have to do is know what the original text says to understand it. Or you have to use a good translation.

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What you are quoting is not a translation of it is supposed to be a transliteration but they used the Masoretic text which has vowels and the original did not have vowels.

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A true transliteration would be Rhb.

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means: 1.pride, blusterer.

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Then

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In the last half of the verse Job is deriding Bildad about his pride.

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In verse 13 the crooked meaning 1.fleeing serpent meaning 1.serpent, snake.

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I hope that explanation satisfies you and if it don't you are free to believe anything your mind can imagine it says.

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I prefer to let scripture define scripture.Take the "fleeing serpent" of Job 26:13 and the "he smiteth" Rahab of 26:12 "smiteth is Hebrew mchz. "fleeing serpent" is nchs brych. The so-called "formed" translation of the KJV is is chll.Here, in Psalms, the KJV translates chll as"wounded"

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Psalm 109:22
HEB: אָנֹ֑כִי וְ֝לִבִּ֗י חָלַ֥ל בְּקִרְבִּֽי׃
NAS: And my heart is wounded within
KJV: and my heart is wounded within
INT: and my heart is wounded within

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But back to the use of nchs brych.Let scripture define scripture.Here is the NIV translation of Is. 27:1

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In that day, the LORD will punish with his sword-- his fierce, great and powerful sword-- Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea.

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The "gliding serpent" is the exact same nchs brych of Job 26:13 so that is a clear parallel.The "coiling serpent" of Is. 27:1 is Hebrew nchs 'qlltnThe "monster of the sea" is tnyn 'sr bym . Now 'as is therelative pronoun "who, which, that" ... "in Yam" or "in the sea"Now lets look at the Lotan parallel in Ugaritic text KTU 1.5 I 1-4.

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"When you smite Lotan the fleeing serpent ... the twisting serpent ...with seven heads, the heavens will wither...

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"you smite" is Ugaritic tmchz which is same root as mchz in Job 26:12 and KJV 'he smiteth"."twisting serpent" is Ugaritic btn 'qltn which is same as Hebrew text in Is 27:1 nchs 'qlltn (translated coiling serpent" in NIV) except for the doubled consonant in the Hebrew.Psalms 74:12 (or round about) has Leviathan with multiple heads.The scholars seem to be allowing the scripture to define the scripture, then comparing it to the Canaanite texts , which use nearly the same language, for further clarification to seal the deal.